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Young_fogey
Deinonychus
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 315
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 Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I admit I don't understand a lot about the sacrifice of Christ but that God would become one of us to die for me means a lot. |
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Bec
Cramazing
Joined: Aug 18, 2004
Age: 21
Posts: 1916
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus dying for people's sins didn't happen either way you look at it.
If you're a Christian: He was crucified, but then came back from the dead a few days later. There was no sacrifice. Peter (who was also crucified, supposedly upside down) didn't rise from the dead, so he actually sacrificed/suffered more than Jesus did. If Jesus didn't really sacrifice anything by coming back to life, one of the most important parts of Christianity is completely pointless.
If you're not a Christian: He was just a man (if you think he even existed), and he was not a saviour. I don't think I have to explain this part any further... |
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kevv729
Shai-Hulud
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 2850
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Bec
Your wrong it does not matter if You died 3 days or 2000 years so to speak death is death before God. Jesus Resurrection 3 days later is a Hope for All of Us that Live or have Lived on Earth. Jesus has given Us this hope from His Death and His Resurrection in the end.
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Come on My children lets All get Along Okay.
http://www.pearlsofwisdom.forumup.com |
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Glasskitten
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Apr 01, 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Phobos
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He was crucified, but then came back from the dead a few days later. There was no sacrifice. |
I think that this is a difference in the interpretation of "death". Apparently physical death is an unpleasant experience itself, but there is also non-physical pain resulting from the whole "taking upon himself the entire world's sins" thing, and that can be presumed to be quite a burden. Then there is hell, which he had to visit in order to prevent the entire human race from getting stuck in it. I think I remember hearing the Sunday school teachers mentioning that the essence of hell/"spiritual death" is separation from God...described by some as a thorough, insatiable emptiness less tolerable than physical pain, which a few people have claimed they feel on here Earth.
I suppose the thing I am more or less attempting to communicate is that Jesus may be just fine now, but after literally going through hell, He at least earned Himself gratitude from a portion of the populace.
[If this is inarticulate or in some other way poorly expressed, please forgive me and cast your blame toward my 2:30AM bedtime.] |
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Tolian
Snowy Owl
Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 127
Location: My own planet
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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It'd be really nice if God could pop down to earth one day and prove to everyone he exists. He doesn't have to explain all the terrible things that happen to people, or anything like that, just that he exists. Otherwise, all I see religion to be is an ancient device used to control and pacify people, before television was invented.
I geniunely don't mean to offend any religious people, this is just my view.
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To all of my friends:
Wait, never mind. |
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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| Nomaken wrote: | Who thinks this was important? Or impressive? Or hard?
Because seriously, if me and a bunch of other people are all standing around thinking, "Hey, we need 1 guy to die for all of our sins, we got any volunteers?" I'd probably be pretty close to the front of the line. Doesn't seem like a big sacrifice knowing there is existance post death. I mean, yeah, crucifiction is extremely agonizing, but once its over you're set. Especially knowing it is for everybodys sins. Seems like a really good deal.
And if like in a couple of years we need a new guy to die for our sins, i'll volunteer, i got a lot of free time. People act like it was such a hard thing to do, and i'm just not seeing why it is. |
Go watch the movie The Last Temptation of Christ and then maybe you'll understand.
| Quote: | | I think I remember hearing the Sunday school teachers mentioning that the essence of hell/"spiritual death" is separation from God...described by some as a thorough, insatiable emptiness less tolerable than physical pain, which a few people have claimed they feel on here Earth. |
Exactly. While on the cross, this is what Jesus experiences, hence the words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". He received justice, while mankind received mercy (should we ask for it).
| Quote: | | It'd be really nice if God could pop down to earth one day and prove to everyone he exists. He doesn't have to explain all the terrible things that happen to people, or anything like that, just that he exists. |
God has done it, does do it, and will continue to do this. Most people simply do not, as the old saying goes, see the forest for the trees.
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"And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And beauty stayed his hand. And from that day on, he was as one dead." |
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jdbob
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Jan 05, 2006
Age: 52
Posts: 197
Location: John Day, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Tolian wrote: | | It'd be really nice if God could pop down to earth one day and prove to everyone he exists. |
I'm sure Zeus has better things to do  |
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Tolian
Snowy Owl
Joined: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 127
Location: My own planet
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | | It'd be really nice if God could pop down to earth one day and prove to everyone he exists. He doesn't have to explain all the terrible things that happen to people, or anything like that, just that he exists. |
God has done it, does do it, and will continue to do this. Most people simply do not, as the old saying goes, see the forest for the trees. |
It's incredibly vague responses like this that keep fortune tellers in business, and why many people still read their horrorscopes.
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To all of my friends:
Wait, never mind. |
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2908
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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One of the annoying things about this site is the sheer number of people who have nothing relevant or intelligent to say on a subject, but simply have to post their banalities (or what they seem to think are witty/satirical remarks) on any active thread.
If people want or see a need for a christian/atheist debate, I suggest they start their own thread for that purpose. |
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Now are you referring to me, Tolian, or someone else?
But more importantly, didn't this thread start off as a christian/atheist debate?
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"And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And beauty stayed his hand. And from that day on, he was as one dead." |
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Mithrandir
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 19, 2004
Age: 22
Posts: 608
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Nomaken wrote: | | Being the second guy to die for our sins is one thing, but if i were jesus himself, i'd be all like, "Woooohooo!" Then i'd collapse again because being crucified is very tiring. |
Have you seen Life of Brian:
always look at the bright side of life
The urge for thirst is even stronger then breathing.
I remember reading that Jesus was given a sponge soaked in liquid for drinking (was it vinegar?)
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Music is the language of the world.
Math is the language of the universe. |
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: Re: "Jesus dying for our sins." |
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| Tolian wrote: |
It's incredibly vague responses like this that keep fortune tellers in business, and why many people still read their horrorscopes. |
Well, you want me to elaborate a little? In an old post I made here somewhere at WP I talked about the futility and frustration of having no certain objective evidence of anything, and how that pretty much may justify a pragmatic approach to faith. In order to wish for or demand evidence of God we really have to ask ourselves what sort of evidence could possibly suffice anyway. If God, by definition, isn't even subject to evidence in the same manner that scientific phenomena are (once the supernatural can be observed/described/predicted/controlled in this manner, it is no longer supernatural), then what could we possibly hope for?
To most faithful believers, including the most intelligent and insightful, there is no need for such a dilemma, as they feel that God has revealed himself to them in ways that are much more subtle and profound. They may intellectually understand the dilemma, but are not at all bothered by it, because they feel God's presence with them and within them (iIm not saying this is a fact other than their feeling it is so). It all seems to boil down to a matter of perspective for them. It lead me to conlcude that if God exists, not only would many people not recognize him/her/it as such, but we're mostly asking the wrong questions. That certainly makes sense to me (I think we're out of touch with a lot of things), and seems in line with much of what's written in the bible.
_________________
"And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And beauty stayed his hand. And from that day on, he was as one dead." |
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mithrandir wrote: |
Have you seen Life of Brian:
always look at the bright side of life |
That's one song I'd like to have played at my funeral.
| Quote: | The urge for thirst is even stronger then breathing.
I remember reading that Jesus was given a sponge soaked in liquid for drinking (was it vinegar?) |
Wine mixed with gall, I believe, which would presumably dull the pain, but we are told that when he tasted it, he refused to drink. Such a copious blood loss would certainly leave one thirsty. I think Jesus mentioned something about his tongue sticking to the roof of his mouth.
_________________
"And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And beauty stayed his hand. And from that day on, he was as one dead."
Last edited by Thagomizer on Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Laura
Toucan
Joined: Jan 22, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Jesus was one of over 1000 people who were 'cusified'. So why was his death different? What made his death different to the others? If they were alive today would they feel any pitty for jesus? And was his death essentral or not? For me it is not he wasent nothing special he was a man which suffered the law. The laws at the time in roman history was that if u talked about religion u suffered the conserquence. If Jesus death was essentral to the bible why was our sins used as a exuse for the wrong he did and later in roman history christianity became there main religion. So he made sucsess in brain washing the generation with the bible. Was his death different no it wasent he was the same because we are all made to die some day so why dose another death matter because death is the end of good of some one so no one wins Jesus a suitable man died and we get told what is wrong and right when the identifacation of wrong and right is impossabe because wromg and right is openinated and is never straight ford.
i would like to hear ur thorghts on this |
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Thagomizer
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 752
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Laura wrote: | | Jesus was one of over 1000 people who were 'cusified'. So why was his death different? What made his death different to the others? |
This is actually an argument for, not against, Christianity. There were plenty of failed jewish revolutions and newly founded cults that died with the execution of their founders. So why did Christianity endure? The followers continued with the teachings of Jesus for some reason (to a christian of course it isn't some reason), and this message was apparently one powerful enough to withstand the test of time.
| Quote: | | For me it is not he wasent nothing special he was a man which suffered the law. The laws at the time in roman history was that if u talked about religion u suffered the conserquence. |
At the time not too many people thought much of it. The Roman attitude towards gods was "the more, the merrier". The Romans wouldn't have cared if a jewish carpenter claimed he was the son of a god, unless this claim implied political power. The crucifixion mostly makes sense in the context of how this claim would have been interpreted as blasphemy by the temple of Jerusalem.
| Quote: | | If Jesus death was essentral to the bible why was our sins used as a exuse for the wrong he did and later in roman history christianity became there main religion. |
Huh? I think you need to revise this sentence considerably. If the question is what I think it is, it's still a non-point and a non sequitor.
| Quote: | So he made sucsess in brain washing the generation with the bible. Was his death different no it wasent he was the same because we are all made to die some day so why dose another death matter because death is the end of good of some one so no one wins Jesus a suitable man died and we get told what is wrong and right when the identifacation of wrong and right is impossabe because wromg and right is openinated and is never straight ford.
i would like to hear ur thorghts on this |
What? That's more than 75 words without any form of punctuation, pal. How do you expect to hear my thoughts on that when I can't even understand yours?
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"And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And beauty stayed his hand. And from that day on, he was as one dead." |
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