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TB
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 173
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 Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: gifted children |
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i read something about the characteristics that gifted children tend to have and almost all of them seem to fit a lot of people with as also.
http://giftedkids.about.com/od/gifted101/a/giftedtraits.htm
am i just imagining things here ?.
discuss pls. |
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arielhawksquill
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 330
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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It's true, the two labels do have a lot of traits in common. Giftedness doesn't cause things like stimming, lack of eye contact, rigid routines, anxiety, and all the other drawbacks of AS, though.
Some people are both, and the euphemistic phrase for that in the gifted education community is "twice exceptional"--exceptional for being gifted, and also exceptional for having AS. |
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pschristmas
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 02, 2008
Age: 42
Posts: 519
Location: Buda, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Part of the overlap may be that the term "gifted" was used before Asperger's was an official diagnosis. I remember during the early eighties, my sister would force me to use "feeling words" when she asked me questions about my day because my neice's therapist had told her that "gifted" kids often couldn't describe their emotions. I really hated having to do that every time I spoke to her.
Regards,
Patricia |
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Callista
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 04, 2006
Age: 26
Posts: 3847
Location: Central USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Non-AS gifted kids have a common experience with AS kids--namely, they are what we call "neurodiverse". They have brains that are different enough from the average to put some distance between them and most people. There are a lot of nonspecific traits that you find among anyone who is isolated socially because they have a different mind. You'll find them in ADHD kids, kids raised socially isolated from their same-age peers, kids with an atypical talent that they spend a lot of time training at... really, anyone who thinks differently.
Add to that the fact that people with Asperger's are generally only diagnosed with Asperger's if they have normal or above IQ (or seem to have normal or above intelligence), and you have a large overlap. While technically one can only be excluded on the basis of IQ if one scores below about 70, realistically the diagnosis is far more likely to switch to PDDNOS below about 90, even if criteria for Asperger's are met. Well, of course if you take away the bottom of the range from a diagnosis, you're going to have smarter-than-average people with that diagnosis... and a large overlap with Gifted.
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 6391
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Well,
Very Observant *(was, now selective)
Extremely Curious
Intense interests
Excellent memory *(was, now more selective)
Long attention span *(was, it is now more selective)
Excellent reasoning skills
Well-developed powers of abstraction, conceptualization, and synthesis
Quickly and easily sees relationships in ideas, objects, or facts
Fluent and flexible thinking
Elaborate and original thinking
Excellent problem solving skills
Learns quickly and with less practice and repetition
Unusual and/or vivid imagination *(was)
Social and Emotional Traits (see Supersensitivities in Gifted Children)
Interested in philosophical and social issues
Very sensitive, emotionally and even physically
Concerned about fairness and injustice
Perfectionistic *(was)
Energetic *(was)
Well-Developed Sense of Humor *(certain types)
Usually intrinsically motivated
Relates well to parents, teachers and other adults *(only SOME)
Language Traits (See Language Development in Gifted Children)
Extensive Vocabulary
May Read Early
Reads Rapidly and Widely
Asks "what if" questions
Additional Traits
Enjoys learning new things
Enjoys intellectual activity
Displays intellectual playfulness
Prefers books and magazines meant for older children
Skeptical, critical, and evaluative
Asynchronous development
So it describes me, that's for sure. |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 6391
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| pschristmas wrote: | Part of the overlap may be that the term "gifted" was used before Asperger's was an official diagnosis. I remember during the early eighties, my sister would force me to use "feeling words" when she asked me questions about my day because my neice's therapist had told her that "gifted" kids often couldn't describe their emotions. I really hated having to do that every time I spoke to her.
Regards,
Patricia |
Yeah, Gifted was NEVER really considered to mean just SMART! They were ALWAYS considered eccentric, lacking in SOME "intelligence"(like "pop culture" and social), had weird preferences, a reluctance to change, etc... Sound FAMILIAR? GRANTED, that is just a steriotype, but many have a kernel of truth. |
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JessicaDayla
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I was both. I have an IQ (yeah, IQ means nothing, but I still like the number) of 143, and AS. It's weird, I aced the last IQ test I took, and I was told that the test wasn't designed to accurately score people who scored near perfect at the age I took it.
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TPE2
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| pschristmas wrote: | Part of the overlap may be that the term "gifted" was used before Asperger's was an official diagnosis. I remember during the early eighties, my sister would force me to use "feeling words" when she asked me questions about my day because my neice's therapist had told her that "gifted" kids often couldn't describe their emotions. I really hated having to do that every time I spoke to her.
Regards,
Patricia |
But the question is: there is any advantage if these children had been diagnosed as "aspies" instead of as "gifteds"?
In terms of self-knowledge, social aceptance of some "excentricities", eventually the right to have a flexible curriculum at school, etc., a diagnosis of "gifted" could be so good as diagnosis of "Asperger's Syndrome"; and, in terms of self-esteem, a diagnosis of gifted is much better than a diagnosis of AS.
There is also the "self-fulfilling prophecy effect": in terms of future expectations, people ear "gifted" and think "s/he could become a brilliant scientist, a college treacher, who knows?"; if they ear "Asperger's Syndrome", some will think "s/he never will have a job and will be living with their parents until they die".* And, because people assume that, these can become true
*both stereotipes are wrong, but... |
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LuciaTheRed
Emu Egg
Joined: Mar 02, 2009
Age: 19
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| I think there has to be an overlap. I'm "gifted" with many traits, but I don't have many of the defining traits of an Aspie. I have intense interests, but I also have many general ones and I'm a social butterfly, if a little absent-minded. I like what Callista said about being neurally diverse. |
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Tantybi
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Age: 31
Posts: 1053
Location: Wonderland
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| TPE2 wrote: | | pschristmas wrote: | Part of the overlap may be that the term "gifted" was used before Asperger's was an official diagnosis. I remember during the early eighties, my sister would force me to use "feeling words" when she asked me questions about my day because my neice's therapist had told her that "gifted" kids often couldn't describe their emotions. I really hated having to do that every time I spoke to her.
Regards,
Patricia |
But the question is: there is any advantage if these children had been diagnosed as "aspies" instead of as "gifteds"?
In terms of self-knowledge, social aceptance of some "excentricities", eventually the right to have a flexible curriculum at school, etc., a diagnosis of "gifted" could be so good as diagnosis of "Asperger's Syndrome"; and, in terms of self-esteem, a diagnosis of gifted is much better than a diagnosis of AS.
There is also the "self-fulfilling prophecy effect": in terms of future expectations, people ear "gifted" and think "s/he could become a brilliant scientist, a college treacher, who knows?"; if they ear "Asperger's Syndrome", some will think "s/he never will have a job and will be living with their parents until they die".* And, because people assume that, these can become true
*both stereotipes are wrong, but... |
Very good point. And, the programs the schools offer for gifted are different than Aspies. As usual, the burden is on the parent to make sure their kid gets into the relevant programs, or have the school create one if necessary. But, not all parents really care about that sort of thing. Even the better parents who had their child diagnosed and do get involved in their children's life rarely have the time, the patience, and the ability (as they may be Aspie themselves) to manipulate the system to work in favor of their children. I'm sure many parents are asking unanswered questions right now, Is there any program available for that (whatever you want that to be)? If so, how do I find out if my kid would benefit from it? How would I get my kid into it? Who do I talk to about it? If it doesn't exist, it should, how do I make it happen?
I hear of all these programs on how to get special accomodations from the school for children who are on the autistic spectrum, and it seems to vary by state, and it seems to come equipped with a lot of freaking paper work and waiting. I also hear of a lot of programs for the gifted students, and I've known kids to be in them, but I have no idea how they got there. In all honesty, none of them were really gifted but just able to make good grades (in other words, they worked harder at their academics than the norm). Even then, there really is no point in the gifted programs unless you are attempting to get into a college like Harvard or plan on applying for academic scholarships (which are few and far between in comparison to athletic scholarships). I personally wasn't in a gifted program, but I promise you, maintaining a 3.5 GPA with my Honors Classes, Calculus, Physics, all that crap was a total waste of my time. I would have been better off taking study hall and registering with an online college taking English Comp 1 or something. Like in my case, I was mentally ready to handle college classes at my junior year in high school, but instead, I, along with many other smart children, had to find something to fill our time waiting for the rest of the class to catch up.
In addition, if you look at positions of power in any field, most people in that position have a degree from a place like Harvard or Yale. They do offer some academic scholarships, which I'm sure students are as likely to get as a rewarding career in acting, but more often than not, even a partial scholarship would require a lot of money to handle tuition which only the rich (the people in those powerful positions who already have a degree from a school like that) can afford. That isn't a school for the gifted as much as a school for the rich, so the way I look at it, rich kids are more expected to become a brilliant scientist more so than the gifted kids. Again, the stereotype is wrong to have it, but it's a more accurate stereotype. |
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Crocodile
Velociraptor
Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Age: 17
Posts: 423
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm both gifted ans autistic, and I think there might be some neurological overlap. Many extremely intelligent children are also autistic. It's interesting, I'd like to know how it works, there seems to be some connection.
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TPE2
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Tantybi wrote: | | Even then, there really is no point in the gifted programs unless you are attempting to get into a college like Harvard or plan on applying for academic scholarships (which are few and far between in comparison to athletic scholarships). |
I suppose that the ideia of "gifted programs" is teaching the "gifted children" in subjects that they consider intelectually stimulating, instead of in subject that they will consider too boring. |
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TPE2
Velociraptor
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 470
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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A point that I think that is related with that is the degree of "focus" that is needed to have "Asperger's Syndrome". It is different if your "special interest" is "wasps", or "insects", or "animals", or "natural sciences"; or if it is "the swedish crusades against the finns and balts" or if it is "history".
If we accept that the "special interest" can be a "broad interest" and/or that it is possible to have many "special interests" at the same time, I think that, in these case, many (probably the majority) of the so-called "gifted children" will fit the criteria for a diagnosis of AS.
Last edited by TPE2 on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
Joined: May 01, 2009
Age: 32
Posts: 1551
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm convinced that "giftedness" is caused by the same or similar neurological difference as folks on the spectrum. However, I believe that the neurological difference is small enough to not cause perceivable issues with daily functioning. In effect, there isn't a problem to diagnose. I also believe that this is, albeit inadvertently, society's label for seeing the positive aspects of neurodiversity. I think that the neurodiversity movement needs to play up the relationship between giftedness and the autistic spectrum. It may foster an understanding that isn't currently prevalent.
I have no doubt that my teachers and parents considered me to be "gifted" growing up. While I've always known or suspected that I was different from my peers, I've had a fairly easy time of adapting myself to the rest of the world. Getting older has helped, too. Most of my sensory issues as a child have almost completely disappeared. I still occasionally have issues, though. They're usually milder. I had started a thread a few weeks back, asking whether you could be autistic without currently having issues. There wasn't really consensus.
Giftedness is that foggy no-man's land that isn't quite NT and isn't quite AS.
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fiddlerpianist
Unclassified and loving it!
Joined: May 01, 2009
Age: 32
Posts: 1551
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I also wanted to add that I think that many of us older folk in the "borderlands" of AS/autism benefited greatly by the fact that no one was diagnosing AS when we were growing up. For our quirkier traits, we were able to overcome them and adapt without too much external intervention. I realize that this wasn't the case for many, and that I was very lucky.
I have no doubt that being seen as a gifted child instead of a child with a development disorder was incredibly important for me to develop self-confidence and optimism. Even though I believe that giftedness and ASDs are fundamentally caused by the same differences, I think that AS should not be sought as a diagnosis unless it's needed.
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