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Wedge
Toucan
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 254
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 Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Has the average level of intelligence went down? |
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| Bozewani wrote: | I feel like as we go on, the average level of intelligence has gone down. Look at today's music, movies and pop culture obsessions.
Look at public policy decisions. Twenty years, America would have never invaded Iraq.
Indeed, intelligence has gone down. |
Harvard´s economist George J. Borjas claim on his book "Labor Economics" (based on hard evidence from previous research) that since the 1980´s in the US it is required more spending in secondary education (teachers, equipment, etc...) in order to achieve the same academic results that were obtained in the previous decades with less spending. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Has the average level of intelligence went down? |
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| pbcoll wrote: | | Not sure about that, in classical Athens even the slaves were literate, and it's perfectly possible to be in school but be functionally illiterate. But yes, in the West literacy rates are probably higher than at any time since the descent into barbarism after the fall of Rome. |
No, the bulk of helots and other manual laborers in ancient Greece would never have been literate. Probably most of those considered citizens would have been at least somewhat literate, but that was a small minority of the population.
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FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
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Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6132
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Although there is no doubt a cultural contribution to intellect there is also a component that has to do with the efficiency of the nervous system and I doubt that has changed to any degree. Americans seem to act more stupidly for several reasons. Perhaps one of the most outstanding one is the almost total loss of confidence in the government. Of course crooked politics has been a large feature of Government for generations but beneath it was a sense that somehow integrity and hard work and ingenuity was a core feature of the culture and that would always sustain you. But since the fall of Nixon and many subsequent scandals all that seems to have decayed alarmingly and the obvious super rich scamming the average guy seems to be completely embedded in current culture so, along with Reagan's drumming into the people that government was inherently evil, the spirit of the country seems to have been largely lost. |
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pbcoll
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2100
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Has the average level of intelligence went down? |
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| Orwell wrote: | | pbcoll wrote: | | Not sure about that, in classical Athens even the slaves were literate, and it's perfectly possible to be in school but be functionally illiterate. But yes, in the West literacy rates are probably higher than at any time since the descent into barbarism after the fall of Rome. |
No, the bulk of helots and other manual laborers in ancient Greece would never have been literate. Probably most of those considered citizens would have been at least somewhat literate, but that was a small minority of the population. |
I remember reading in Plato at one point a slave being asked to read a text out loud. So at least some of the slaves were certainly literate enough to read out loud a text intelligibly without prior preparation or warning.
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I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka)
El hombre es una bestia famélica, envidiosa e insaciable. (Francisco Tario)
I'm male by the way (yes, I know my avatar is misleading). |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Has the average level of intelligence went down? |
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| pbcoll wrote: | | I remember reading in Plato at one point a slave being asked to read a text out loud. So at least some of the slaves were certainly literate enough to read out loud a text intelligibly without prior preparation or warning. |
Indeed, some slaves were literate. The Romans used Greek slaves as tutors for their children. But these were not the same slaves who tilled the fields.
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showman616
Snowy Owl
Joined: Feb 09, 2009
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Besides me, how many readers laughed aloud at the title of this thread?
"Has... IQ WENT down?"
At first I wondered if you were being witty.
But apparently the irony was unintentional.
I know grammar doesnt necessarily correlate with IQ, but..
It doesnt help a thread about intelligence if you give it an unintelligent sounding title.
I guess the national IQ has GONE down.. if no one but me is bothered by the fact that you asked if IQ has "went" down! |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
Posts: 4795
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Has the average level of intelligence went down? |
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| Bozewani wrote: | I feel like as we go on, the average level of intelligence has gone down. Look at today's music, movies and pop culture obsessions.
Look at public policy decisions. Twenty years, America would have never invaded Iraq.
Indeed, intelligence has gone down. |
So you say, but there is contrary data:
See
http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/040ns_001.htm
The article says IQ scores are rising.
ruveyn |
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phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 2207
Location: Montreal, Québec
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| The same article say that we become more tolerant to violence. <.< Is that your idea of an intelligent way to solve problems? |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
Posts: 4795
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| phil777 wrote: | | The same article say that we become more tolerant to violence. <.< Is that your idea of an intelligent way to solve problems? |
Our tolerance of violence (a term with a fuzzy meaning, by the way) has nothing to do with our abstract ability to solve problems which is what intelligence is.
ruveyn |
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phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 2207
Location: Montreal, Québec
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Hrmph... But isn't the term "violence" itself an abstract concept? And by so, wouldn't it make its way into one's reasoning when solving said problems? (example: you found a locked door, do you a) smash it open? b) ask someone for help? c) try to lock pick it? d) find the key? ) |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
Posts: 4795
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| phil777 wrote: | | Hrmph... But isn't the term "violence" itself an abstract concept? And by so, wouldn't it make its way into one's reasoning when solving said problems? (example: you found a locked door, do you a) smash it open? b) ask someone for help? c) try to lock pick it? d) find the key? ) |
First I would try b, then d, then c and then a.
Low energy solutions are the best solutions.
ruveyn |
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Vexcalibur
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Roman wrote: | Actually about 10 years ago or so I read an article that IQ-s go up, and that was explained by the popularity of video games that train performance IQ. However, it was also noticed that verbal component of IQ goes down, and that is because school and reading gets out of favor. Nevertheless, the performance IQ outweighs the verbal, so the total IQ goes up and they have to constantly readjust the scaling in order to keep 100 the average.
However, IQ is not everything. As far as actual education system, I agree that it gets worse as far as USA is concerned, although I don't know about other countries. I heard many possible reasons why it happens. One such reason is that they are trying to accomodate black students more and more. The other reason is that, as I mentioned, ppl get more and more preoccupied with TV and video games so they don't have time to study properly; and then schools try to lower the education in order not to fail too many students.
I am not sure about countries other than USA though. In Russia education became better rather than worse, as now they are studying calculus in high school over there, while back in 1960-s when my father was in school calculus used to be a college subject. But again, since calculus has been high school subject in Russia for at least two decades, it is not an evidence for any RECENT improvement, so it is conceivable that, for instance, while they still teach calculus in high school, perhaps they don't go as deep as they went two decades ago. But again I don't have evidence for that either, thats pure speculation. |
Average IQ is defined to be always 100, so that article is probably bull...
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phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 2207
Location: Montreal, Québec
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Yep, now would someone conditioned by "shoot'em up" and gore video games have taken the same path as you did?
Oh and Vex, i reckon that when selective pressure is applied, you get a response (which can be 0 as well, hence no change) from which you can create a new average. This is how you do "artificial selection" in genetics. |
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Ahaseurus2000
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2007
Posts: 765
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Television and google probably haven't helped. Interaction with the environment and other people stimulates the growth of intelligence, and T.V. doesn't. Having to learn manual techniques of doing things, from physical labours to maths calculations, exercises the mind and teaches us how to discover such manual techniques, something that Google and Calculators short circuit.
Intelligence is earned with effort and practice. The "Wonders" present in our Age take neither. |
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Roman
Phoenix
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Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Age: 29
Posts: 1098
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Vexcalibur wrote: | | Roman wrote: | Actually about 10 years ago or so I read an article that IQ-s go up, and that was explained by the popularity of video games that train performance IQ. However, it was also noticed that verbal component of IQ goes down, and that is because school and reading gets out of favor. Nevertheless, the performance IQ outweighs the verbal, so the total IQ goes up and they have to constantly readjust the scaling in order to keep 100 the average.
However, IQ is not everything. As far as actual education system, I agree that it gets worse as far as USA is concerned, although I don't know about other countries. I heard many possible reasons why it happens. One such reason is that they are trying to accomodate black students more and more. The other reason is that, as I mentioned, ppl get more and more preoccupied with TV and video games so they don't have time to study properly; and then schools try to lower the education in order not to fail too many students.
I am not sure about countries other than USA though. In Russia education became better rather than worse, as now they are studying calculus in high school over there, while back in 1960-s when my father was in school calculus used to be a college subject. But again, since calculus has been high school subject in Russia for at least two decades, it is not an evidence for any RECENT improvement, so it is conceivable that, for instance, while they still teach calculus in high school, perhaps they don't go as deep as they went two decades ago. But again I don't have evidence for that either, thats pure speculation. |
Average IQ is defined to be always 100, so that article is probably bull... |
According to that article they have to constantly shift the scale in order to maintain average IQ of 100. So when it says IQ goes up what they mean is that it would have been going up if they didn't adjust the scale. |
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