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leejosepho
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 709
Location: 100 miles east of Chicago
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 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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1) Autism either exists or it does not, you and/or I either have it or not, and no diagnosis or lack of one can change that either way.
2) Charlatans and/or wannabes are far less likely to harm the autistic people the rest of us do our very best to protect within our community.
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hush6
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| leejosepho wrote: | 1) Autism either exists or it does not, you and/or I either have it or not, and no diagnosis or lack of one can change that either way.
2) Charlatans and/or wannabes are far less likely to harm the autistic people the rest of us do our very best to protect within our community. |
No no, I'm still not seeing it. I was never arguing the existence of AS, just the legitimacy of SD. |
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Who_Am_I
stubbornness keeps me alive
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Age: 25
Posts: 4781
Location: My body is in Brisbane and my mind is in the gutter. :D
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | | Aimless wrote: | | It might do well for the "diagnostic snobs" to remember they were once undiagnosed themselves. Presumably someone had suspicions beforehand. |
Heh, yeh, hence why the diagnosis comes about, you have suspicions, you go to the doctor.
I don't see why it's snobbery to have a preference for doing things the right way. |
You make it sound a lot easier than it actually is. First, you have to find a doctor who knows about ASDs. Then you have to go through the whole business of getting a referral, making an appointment, and attending the appointment, which, if you have difficulty in communicating with people and trouble breaking your routine, is very difficult. Besides that, diagnosis costs money, and, even if it is possible to get it relatively inexpensively, if your executive functioning is poor, you may not be able to have enough spare money for a diagnosis at any one time.
I was referred for a diagnosis by my GP to someone (who specialises in mood disorders, not ASDs) who dismisses my struggles with people, my lack of organisation, the fact that normal environments are painful, my need for routine, my difficulty getting started on anything, and the trouble I have with transitions, as "avoidant behaviour", despite the fact that I've told him that the only time I avoid things is if they leave me in so much physical pain that I'm risking my health by continuing with them. (Aside: this is why I, and probably most of the self-diagnosed, suspect an ASD- not because I want to feel validated or special, but because I have all these problems that make life REALLY, REALLY, DIFFICULT, and an ASD is the thing that best explains things, even after doing extensive research into other possibilities. The implication that all self-diagnosed people must have looked up Asperger's on Wikipedia and decided that it was a cool new thing to have is really quite insulting.)
There are ASD specialists quite near to where I live. The biggest reason why I haven't seen them is because I can't change more than one large thing in my routine per week without getting horribly stressed and prone to meltdowns (as in, if a page on my web browser doesn't load fast enough, within 3 seconds I'm hitting my head against the desk repeatedly). Even one change per week is pushing things, and I haven't been able to find a week where I didn't have things to do.
That reason also applies to getting a referral, ringing to make an appointment, and so forth.
Another big reason is that whenever I have enough money, it's needed for something else, and also, saving is difficult.
The final major reason is that it would take a lot of communication, which is difficult, as, unless I'm speaking about my special interest, I can barely get a sentence out unless I've planned every word of it beforehand and rehearsed it multiple times in my head. Even with this effort, if something unexpected happens, my communication breaks down.
Of course, if I'd been diagnosed as a child, my parents would have paid for it and arranged everything, but apparently if children are academically bright and not disrupting the classroom, there can't possibly be anything wrong with them.
_________________
Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I !!!!
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I |
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hush6
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Who_Am_I wrote: | | hush6 wrote: | | Aimless wrote: | | It might do well for the "diagnostic snobs" to remember they were once undiagnosed themselves. Presumably someone had suspicions beforehand. |
Heh, yeh, hence why the diagnosis comes about, you have suspicions, you go to the doctor.
I don't see why it's snobbery to have a preference for doing things the right way. |
You make it sound a lot easier than it actually is. First, you have to find a doctor who knows about ASDs. Then you have to go through the whole business of getting a referral, making an appointment, and attending the appointment, which, if you have difficulty in communicating with people and trouble breaking your routine, is very difficult. Besides that, diagnosis costs money, and, even if it is possible to get it relatively inexpensively, if your executive functioning is poor, you may not be able to have enough spare money for a diagnosis at any one time.
I was referred for a diagnosis by my GP to someone (who specialises in mood disorders, not ASDs) who dismisses my struggles with people, my lack of organisation, the fact that normal environments are painful, my need for routine, my difficulty getting started on anything, and the trouble I have with transitions, as "avoidant behaviour", despite the fact that I've told him that the only time I avoid things is if they leave me in so much physical pain that I'm risking my health by continuing with them. (Aside: this is why I, and probably most of the self-diagnosed, suspect an ASD- not because I want to feel validated or special, but because I have all these problems that make life REALLY, REALLY, DIFFICULT, and an ASD is the thing that best explains things, even after doing extensive research into other possibilities. The implication that all self-diagnosed people must have looked up Asperger's on Wikipedia and decided that it was a cool new thing to have is really quite insulting.)
There are ASD specialists quite near to where I live. The biggest reason why I haven't seen them is because I can't change more than one large thing in my routine per week without getting horribly stressed and prone to meltdowns (as in, if a page on my web browser doesn't load fast enough, within 3 seconds I'm hitting my head against the desk repeatedly). Even one change per week is pushing things, and I haven't been able to find a week where I didn't have things to do.
That reason also applies to getting a referral, ringing to make an appointment, and so forth.
Another big reason is that whenever I have enough money, it's needed for something else, and also, saving is difficult.
The final major reason is that it would take a lot of communication, which is difficult, as, unless I'm speaking about my special interest, I can barely get a sentence out unless I've planned every word of it beforehand and rehearsed it multiple times in my head. Even with this effort, if something unexpected happens, my communication breaks down.
Of course, if I'd been diagnosed as a child, my parents would have paid for it and arranged everything, but apparently if children are academically bright and not disrupting the classroom, there can't possibly be anything wrong with them. |
So...because it is hard you can do/say/decide whatever you want?? umm ok. Gotta say I disagree. |
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leejosepho
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
Age: 59
Posts: 709
Location: 100 miles east of Chicago
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | | I was never arguing the existence of AS, just the legitimacy of SD. |
Okay, I got off-track a bit.
SD is legitimate when it is accurate, and a professional diagnosis is illegitimate when it is inaccurate. The actual presense or absence of autism determines the legitimacy of a diagnosis, not merely who either did or did not make a diagnosis.
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I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended right here on WrongPlanet. |
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Who_Am_I
stubbornness keeps me alive
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Age: 25
Posts: 4781
Location: My body is in Brisbane and my mind is in the gutter. :D
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | | Who_Am_I wrote: | | hush6 wrote: | | Aimless wrote: | | It might do well for the "diagnostic snobs" to remember they were once undiagnosed themselves. Presumably someone had suspicions beforehand. |
Heh, yeh, hence why the diagnosis comes about, you have suspicions, you go to the doctor.
I don't see why it's snobbery to have a preference for doing things the right way. |
You make it sound a lot easier than it actually is. First, you have to find a doctor who knows about ASDs. Then you have to go through the whole business of getting a referral, making an appointment, and attending the appointment, which, if you have difficulty in communicating with people and trouble breaking your routine, is very difficult. Besides that, diagnosis costs money, and, even if it is possible to get it relatively inexpensively, if your executive functioning is poor, you may not be able to have enough spare money for a diagnosis at any one time.
I was referred for a diagnosis by my GP to someone (who specialises in mood disorders, not ASDs) who dismisses my struggles with people, my lack of organisation, the fact that normal environments are painful, my need for routine, my difficulty getting started on anything, and the trouble I have with transitions, as "avoidant behaviour", despite the fact that I've told him that the only time I avoid things is if they leave me in so much physical pain that I'm risking my health by continuing with them. (Aside: this is why I, and probably most of the self-diagnosed, suspect an ASD- not because I want to feel validated or special, but because I have all these problems that make life REALLY, REALLY, DIFFICULT, and an ASD is the thing that best explains things, even after doing extensive research into other possibilities. The implication that all self-diagnosed people must have looked up Asperger's on Wikipedia and decided that it was a cool new thing to have is really quite insulting.)
There are ASD specialists quite near to where I live. The biggest reason why I haven't seen them is because I can't change more than one large thing in my routine per week without getting horribly stressed and prone to meltdowns (as in, if a page on my web browser doesn't load fast enough, within 3 seconds I'm hitting my head against the desk repeatedly). Even one change per week is pushing things, and I haven't been able to find a week where I didn't have things to do.
That reason also applies to getting a referral, ringing to make an appointment, and so forth.
Another big reason is that whenever I have enough money, it's needed for something else, and also, saving is difficult.
The final major reason is that it would take a lot of communication, which is difficult, as, unless I'm speaking about my special interest, I can barely get a sentence out unless I've planned every word of it beforehand and rehearsed it multiple times in my head. Even with this effort, if something unexpected happens, my communication breaks down.
Of course, if I'd been diagnosed as a child, my parents would have paid for it and arranged everything, but apparently if children are academically bright and not disrupting the classroom, there can't possibly be anything wrong with them. |
So...because it is hard you can do/say/decide whatever you want?? umm ok. Gotta say I disagree. |
You completely missed the point of what I said. I was trying to explain why people who may qualify for a diagnosis might be unable to just go and get a diagnosis, because of problems that can be caused by having an ASD. I said nothing about be able to do/say/decide whatever I want.
_________________
Music Theory 101: Cadences.
Authentic cadence: V-I
Plagal cadence: IV-I
Deceptive cadence: V- ANYTHING BUT I !!!!
Beethoven cadence: V-I-V-I-V-V-V-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I! I! I! I I I |
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wigglyspider
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 24, 2009
Posts: 823
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: |
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That's definitely one of the main reasons I never tell anyone, or downplay it when someone finds out. I hate to do anything that stirs up drama, or makes me look like I'm trying to, because I'm not.;;; (Anyway, if you downplay it, a nice person will still notice when you're struggling, and try to help you out, especially when they know you're actually trying rather than attempting to get attention by acting like you need help.)
I guess it's unfortunate, but that's just how things work, I guess... not just with this kind of thing, but with everything. Sometimes it's just not the right time. Maybe later it will all cool down when everyone finds some other disease they think they have, hahaha.
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"Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13253
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Aimless wrote: | | It might do well for the "diagnostic snobs" to remember they were once undiagnosed themselves. Presumably someone had suspicions beforehand. |
I think you have put your finger on the crux of the matter, Aimless! Those 'diagnostic snobs' as you so aptly call them must have had no suspicions of them selves at all, no matter what those around them might have had! And in typical Aspie fashion, could not conceive of others knowing what they had to have someone else figure out for them.
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 4737
Location: Transitional
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | | Aimless wrote: | | It might do well for the "diagnostic snobs" to remember they were once undiagnosed themselves. Presumably someone had suspicions beforehand. |
Heh, yeh, hence why the diagnosis comes about, you have suspicions, you go to the doctor.
I don't see why it's snobbery to have a preference for doing things the right way. |
"Right way" - in your opinion, at this time. Fifty years ago, there would be no context for knowing what the issue was in the first place. On what basis do you assert that you are correct, that those who reach their self-assessment (which would be more correct, since there is little that is truly quantifiable as diagnostic criteria) are somehow hindering the advancement of research (by widening awareness?) or harming those who have been seen by a doctor - who may or may not have experience, training, or even a loose grasp on the concept (based on age, severity, et al) - and been given another label that will likely evolve or be refined in the next decade? Just a few questions.
M.
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DeaconBlues
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide - call me...
Joined: Apr 22, 2007
Posts: 2263
Location: Earth, mostly
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:41 am Post subject: |
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Okay, hush6, let's try this one more time.
I was born in 1963. AS was added to the DSM-IV in 1994. Therefore, I was 31 years old before it even became possible to diagnose AS in anyone. Remember also that it takes a while for new information to be disseminated into the psychiatric community, and sometimes even longer for it to be accepted (there are still people who take Skinner seriously, for Pavlov's sake!). And that there has been a longstanding prejudice that ASDs affect children, to the point that even today we hear on these very fora that some psychs refuse to diagnose AS in an adult because "it's a children's disorder".
Then there's the fact that due to issues relating to AS, I can't keep a job long enough to qualify for mental-health benefits, when I'm lucky enough to get such benefits in the first place, and unless the public option in the new health-care-reform bill means I can get free care for being poor, I'm still out in the cold when it comes to seeing a doctor of any sort - much less a specialist in ASDs. (Unlike Oregon, the legislature here in Washington would sooner cut people out of the state's health-care system than raise a tax - and when they do manage it, Tim Eyman starts up another state initiative to cut the tax again. Therefore, I can't get any help from that quarter either.)
Is it not enough that before I even looked up Asperger's Syndrome, I was assured by three separate people who know me well that I am indeed an aspie? Or do I need to get the paper and learn the secret handshake before I'm allowed in the club?
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I am RICHARD, Chief Warlock of the Brothers of Darkness, Lord of the Thirteen Hells, Master of the Bones, Emperor of the Black, Lord of the Undead, and Mayor of a little village up the coast. Very scenic during springtime. |
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hush6
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: |
"Right way" - in your opinion, at this time. Fifty years ago, there would be no context for knowing what the issue was in the first place. On what basis do you assert that you are correct, that those who reach their self-assessment (which would be more correct, since there is little that is truly quantifiable as diagnostic criteria) are somehow hindering the advancement of research (by widening awareness?) or harming those who have been seen by a doctor - who may or may not have experience, training, or even a loose grasp on the concept (based on age, severity, et al) - and been given another label that will likely evolve or be refined in the next decade? Just a few questions.
M. |
1. It is not 50 years ago now.
2. The opinions on how SD hinders research is not really my own, but based on what I have read. I don't know what you mean about harming those who have seen a doctor.
I think (certain) doctors are better at deciding on a ASD Dx because they better informed. And I don't mean they have read more or have more documented information.
Psychs (especially those who specialise in ASDs) see people with ASDs more often than the general person SDing themselves over the internet. Their (doctors) diagnostic tools go well beyond reading the DSM or the most current research and making a comparison or checking off a list (though they have both these tools as well). They have the advantage of seeing and knowing people on the spectrum. They can see those subtle differences between the generalisations of the DSM and the specifics of AS, it is such a fine line alot of the time. They have experience in knowing people with AS, people who self diagnose only know themselves and compare themselves only to things they read and lists of symptoms (I'm not talking about parents of ASD kids who see traits in themselves after their kids dx)...things that alot of people, spectrum or not, could relate to. The reason you see a professional is to see whether you embody those subtle differences or not, you can not say yourself whether you do or not because there is nothing to read, or no list....it's all about the experience. This is what makes them professionals, not the years of school, the physical experiences they've had with people on the spectrum.
It's gunna sound odd, but it's like someone who lays concrete floor for a living. They look at a floor and they can see with their naked eye whether it is level or not, and exactly where it is not level. But if you or I were to look at the same floor, we would not see the inconsistencies and think it was just flat and level. This is because we have not spent days and hours training our brain to see them and looking for these inconsistencies that make a floor that seems level, a very wobly surface. Same with dxing AS. |
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flamingshorts
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 09, 2009
Posts: 154
Location: Brisbane Aust
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | I think (certain) doctors are better at deciding on a ASD Dx because they better informed. And I don't mean they have read more or have more documented information.
Psychs (especially those who specialise in ASDs) see people with ASDs more often than the general person SDing themselves over the internet. |
My experience is you are wrong here. I had to correct one psych who was reading part of the DSM criteria inversely. So this $150 a session professional had never diagnosed anybody.
If I have an unusual lump I should not have to do my own biopsy and send it to the lab. Get the results back, positive fo cancer and then seek out a cancer specialist for professional diagnosis. That is the equivalent of what people are doing when they self-diagnose and then seek professional diagnosis.
Get it through your head the reason for the self diagnosis is that professional standards are abysmal in this area. |
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hush6
Snowy Owl
Joined: Oct 16, 2009
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| flamingshorts wrote: |
My experience is you are wrong here. I had to correct one psych who was reading part of the DSM criteria inversely. So this $150 a session professional had never diagnosed anybody.
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Ok?? I didn't say every doctor, I said certain.
| flamingshorts wrote: |
If I have an unusual lump I should not have to do my own biopsy and send it to the lab. Get the results back, positive fo cancer and then seek out a cancer specialist for professional diagnosis. That is the equivalent of what people are doing when they self-diagnose and then seek professional diagnosis.
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Yeah you see, notice how after you found the lump and got suspicious you go and get a professional to do the biopsy? Then when it's malignant you seek a cancer specialist? You got your suspicions confirmed through a doctor. You didn't perform the biopsy yourself and decide "oh I have cancer", you got sought out a diagnosis that fit your symptoms. That is the critical step that is missing with people that SD AS, they stop before that extra step of getting the professional opinion and just diagnose their 'cancer' themselves.
| flamingshorts wrote: |
Get it through your head the reason for the self diagnosis is that professional standards are abysmal in this area. |
Are you talking about your area? Or America? Cause I'm starting to understand how totally crap the USA is for this kind of condition and for the psychiatric profession in general.
If you are talking about your area in your information (Brisbane) then I must beg to differ. I am from Brissy (well Goldie...) and I happen to know that there are many well informed ASD specialists throughout SE QLD. Not to mention the minds&hearts clinic, the AS mecca for some. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 59
Posts: 13253
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Actually, it is a clinical psychologist that diagnoses Asperger's Syndrome, hush6.
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where sin abounds, grace abounds the more;
Non omnis moriar |
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flamingshorts
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 09, 2009
Posts: 154
Location: Brisbane Aust
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| hush6 wrote: | Yeah you see, notice how after you found the lump and got suspicious you go and get a professional to do the biopsy? Then when it's malignant you seek a cancer specialist? You got your suspicions confirmed through a doctor. You didn't perform the biopsy yourself and decide "oh I have cancer", you got sought out a diagnosis that fit your symptoms. That is the critical step that is missing with people that SD AS, they stop before that extra step of getting the professional opinion and just diagnose their 'cancer' themselves.
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No, once again, you are wrong. In the parallel I am giving, I have to do the biopsy myself, cutting and everything to reach the diagnosis of cancer. I have to send the biopsy to the lab after doing a google for "unexplained lumps" and then seek out a diagnosis from a cancer specialist to confirm what I have figured out for myself. Thats the equivalent of whats happening for so many people who "seek diagnosis" after doing their own research.
I've spent 7 years of visits to a different psych where I would have talked about the same topic every session. Might be a clue? No, this guy just didn't consider Aspergers. How many other abysmal professionals out there are there? That's what the source of ridicule should be. Do you think the penny drops? No. Get it? Are you just stubborn and wrong at the same time. In fact you appear to be so stubborn and non-fact baesed you sound like an NT. |
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