 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Maggiedoll
Loon
Joined: Jun 05, 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 1663
Location: Maryland
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Didn't he shut down thousands of military computers up and down the eastern seaboard??
What about This Article? | Quote: | | Mr McKinnon had become obsessed with a theory that the US was using alien technologies to create weapons and “free energy” |
Are we saying AS "made him do it"?
And what about the threats? Ok, the "your security sucks" bits were one thing, but he also left this one: | Quote: | | It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels. |
I don't know if he's "the biggest cyber-terrorist of all time" but this wasn't some innocent little thing, nor was it something that any of us should want to become the public image of AS.
What amounts to a life sentence may be a bit excessive.. but this is not just some minor thing. It's a serious crime and really, really serious threats.
_________________
Envy, is admiration in denial. --DaWalker
How to Starve the Trolls/Ignore the Meanies: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp688875.html#688875
It's not a listening problem, it's a processing problem! |
|
| Back to top |
|
pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1916
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Maggiedoll wrote: | Didn't he shut down thousands of military computers up and down the eastern seaboard??
What about This Article? | Quote: | | Mr McKinnon had become obsessed with a theory that the US was using alien technologies to create weapons and “free energy” |
Are we saying AS "made him do it"? |
I am saying there is not enough information to determine what role AS might have played in influencing his acts. Are you saying that you know for a matter of fact that even though AS can interfere in acquiring and using common sense, appreciating the impact or consequences of actions, seeing things from another perspective, flexibility of thoughts, resisting impulses, particularly those subsequent to pathological interest and interest related activities, and in making sense of conflicting social and moral values, that it is impossible that AS could have influenced this person’s ability to fully appreciate the consequences of his actions?
Are you saying this even though the seriousness of these acts was not sufficiently obvious and common sense for them to be serious offenses within the jurisdiction where the acts were commissioned, contemporaneously with the acts?
If neurotypical legislators could not predict the seriousness of these acts before they were committed in order to legislate against them, then why do you expect someone with potential impairments in appreciting “common sense”, impulse control, appreciating the consequences and impact of their conduct, and seeing things from a perspective other than their own, while potentially under the influence of “interests” that further restrict and impair perspective taking, while being significantly compelling and further eroding impulse control, would have certainly appreciated and anticipated the seriousness (of these acts) overlooked by trained legislators whose job it is to predict and legislate against “serious acts”?
| Quote: | And what about the threats? Ok, the "your security sucks" bits were one thing, but he also left this one: | Quote: | | It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels. |
I don't know if he's "the biggest cyber-terrorist of all time" but this wasn't some innocent little thing, nor was it something that any of us should want to become the public image of AS. |
He allegedly left that message, and allegedly caused damage. These things have not been proven.
As to the seriousness of the above, are you suggesting that the explanations given by the US government referring to the security failings on Sep 11, are lies? That the US government is conspiring to cover up significant security failings surrounding this seminal event? Do you honestly think the recipient of the alleged message above, might honestly have believed this assertion, even though that recipient has publicly confirmed a contrary explanation for the security lapses on Sep 11?
No “threat” which is very obviously baseless and ludicrous to the recipient can be sensibly construed as serious.
| Quote: | | What amounts to a life sentence may be a bit excessive.. but this is not just some minor thing. It's a serious crime and really, really serious threats. |
The threats are not serious if the recipient could not reasonably be unaware that they were baseless, (and the “threat” above about Sep 11, would be obviously baseless to this recipient, given the recipient has inside knowledge about the security lapses referred to and that they could not have been caused by the message sender), and if the sender did not appreciate the serious nature and potential consequences of sending such a message. AS can interfere with the latter, and on the information available to me, I would not dismiss the possibility that it did, out of hand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Maggiedoll
Loon
Joined: Jun 05, 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 1663
Location: Maryland
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| pandd wrote: | | Are you saying that you know for a matter of fact that even though AS can interfere in acquiring and using common sense, appreciating the impact or consequences of actions, seeing things from another perspective, flexibility of thoughts, resisting impulses, particularly those subsequent to pathological interest and interest related activities, and in making sense of conflicting social and moral values, that it is impossible that AS could have influenced this person’s ability to fully appreciate the consequences of his actions? |
No.. I'm saying that unless there is some kind of legislation passed restricting the rights of people with AS to the extent that adult aspies are not considered free citizens who must take responsibility for their own actions, "that it's his special interest" can't be used as an excuse for hacking into thousands of military computers.
| pandd wrote: | | As to the seriousness of the above, are you suggesting that the explanations given by the US government referring to the security failings on Sep 11, are lies? That the US government is conspiring to cover up significant security failings surrounding this seminal event? Do you honestly think the recipient of the alleged message above, might honestly have believed this assertion, even though that recipient has publicly confirmed a contrary explanation for the security lapses on Sep 11? |
Isn't "covering up security lapses" part of the purpose of government? Nothing is ever completely secure. The purpose of security is to make it look like it's secure.
Are you saying governments don't lie? lol
| pandd wrote: | | The threats are not serious if the recipient could not reasonably be unaware that they were baseless, (and the “threat” above about Sep 11, would be obviously baseless to this recipient, given the recipient has inside knowledge about the security lapses referred to and that they could not have been caused by the message sender), and if the sender did not appreciate the serious nature and potential consequences of sending such a message. AS can interfere with the latter, and on the information available to me, I would not dismiss the possibility that it did, out of hand. |
Whether or not he had anything to do with those prior security lapses doesn't mean much. He left that message on a military computer that he hacked into! Whatever the status of the security of that computer, for someone to hack into it and leave a threat of future disruptions "at the highest levels," that threat certainly isn't completely baseless!
_________________
Envy, is admiration in denial. --DaWalker
How to Starve the Trolls/Ignore the Meanies: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp688875.html#688875
It's not a listening problem, it's a processing problem! |
|
| Back to top |
|
NobelCynic
Deinonychus
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 61
Posts: 328
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pandd wrote: | | What I find damaging to the concept of neuro diversity, is when it is used to justify a lack of tolerance and appropriate accommodation of diversity. |
The biggest problem with the neurodiversity movement is that neurotypicals are the majority, and like most majorities they see no need to make any concession to the minority, their attitude being: "we're the majority, why should we?"; so we are supposed to engage in meaningless small talk and become slaves to fashion, even if we think it is silly, because they don't. This is not right and it will take a lot of time and patience on our part to change it.
For the minority to have the same attitude is not only wrong, it is foolish. Perhaps you would say that the reason so many aspies have such a foolish attitude is that we lack common sense, but I don't know where you got that from; I have never seen it in any discription of Aspergers or any of the diagnostic criteria.
_________________
I am not like normal people
I don't even like normal people |
|
| Back to top |
|
pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1916
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Maggiedoll wrote: | ]
No.. I'm saying that unless there is some kind of legislation passed restricting the rights of people with AS to the extent that adult aspies are not considered free citizens who must take responsibility for their own actions, "that it's his special interest" can't be used as an excuse for hacking into thousands of military computers. |
Such a position is not consistent with the rights of other groups. Are you suggesting that someone who is psychosis symptomatic and unable to differentiate reality from non reality, should not have this taken into consideration in respect of criminal charges unless laws are passed so that every person suffering a psychotic disorder is not a free citizen?
Should someone who has an epileptic fit that results in destruction of property in a shop be charged with criminal vandalism without their disorder being taken into account unless laws are passed so that every epileptic person is not a free citizen?
How exactly would these laws have done anything to prevent this incident? This person was not diagnosed at the time of the incident.
ASDs are highly variable in their effect like many other conditions. Some people with a psychotic disorder are no risk to anyone when at the height of their most severe chronically symptomatic periods. Others are a danger to themselves and others. That the state of mind of people in the first group should be viewed as legally irrelevant unless we restrict the freedom of the people in the second group, is absurd and contrary to basic tennets of justice and free society, not to mention human rights.
Many people with an ASD can live independently, many cannot live independently. Should we refuse any assistance to those who cannot live independently unless all are forced to accept that they cannot live autonomously as free citizens?
Your suggestion that if some individual is found to potentially be effected by some category of disorder, such as to reduce or mitigate criminal culpability in some manner, that anyone with a condition within that category of conditions must by law not be free citizens, is entirely inconsistent with basic tenets of the justice and basic human rights, and certainly is nonsense from a clinical perspective.
| Quote: |
Isn't "covering up security lapses" part of the purpose of government? Nothing is ever completely secure. The purpose of security is to make it look like it's secure.
Are you saying governments don't lie? lol |
This is not a thread about whether or not governments lie. If we assume they do, such a generalization is quite different to proving that the government directly lied not only to the public, but to the bi partisan Commission that investigated this issue. If you wish to argue on the basis that perhaps the government lied about this particular security lapse, then you’ll need to demonstrate that was likely if you expect to be taken seriously. Such claims are usually not made outside posts or web pages devoted to expounding the “9/11 was an inside job” theory.
| Quote: |
Whether or not he had anything to do with those prior security lapses doesn't mean much. He left that message on a military computer that he hacked into! Whatever the status of the security of that computer, for someone to hack into it and leave a threat of future disruptions "at the highest levels," that threat certainly isn't completely baseless! |
Actually, by claiming some part in the security problems around 9/11, the threats are made rather baseless. It’s very obvious from such dialogue that the person involved is not part of some sophisticated terrorist organization. They do not even have the sense to avoid “flagging” themselves by leaving rather stupid and pointless messages, which appear to be the cyber equivalent of the old play ground stand by of sticking your fingers in your ears, poking out your tongue, and saying “na na na na”.
The whole point of the draconian laws and civil rights abuses that were swept into place internationally following 9/11, is that when enacted, everyone was assured they would not be abused. Note the problem with the hysteria that both allowed these laws to be enacted and remains firmly attached to the word “terrorist”.
Terrorism is not terrible because of the word. Acts that would otherwise be petty vandalism, or outright absurd stupidity (and would usually be dealt with firmly but proportionately by any rational justice system) are no worse now than they were before 9/11. Devoting resources to treating such petty idiocy as though it were the kind of terrorism these laws were allegedly enacted to prevent, actually puts everyone at greater risk because those resources should be put to stopping real terrorism.
Note that one of the problems cited for the non use of information that might have prevented 9/11, was the over abundance of information, the system was overwhelmed by an excessive noise to signal ratio. Garry is noise. He is not a terrorist, and redefining his act as terrorism to associate it with worse acts, as though this actually materially changes the real danger (or lack thereof) that Garry presents is not logical or realistic.
Graffiti on a wall is not suddenly “terrorism” just because it contains a political point of view. Obnoxious responses to authority figures is not terrorism just because they spout some political view point while being uncooperative, and hacking a military computer because you can, and leaving asinine and absurd messages because you are too unsophisticated and idiotic to know better than announce yourself with “na na na na” messages, is not terrorism, it’s stupidity, and very probably criminal stupidity. But it is not terrorism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
pandd
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 16, 2006
Posts: 1916
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| NobelCynic wrote: |
The biggest problem with the neurodiversity movement is that neurotypicals are the majority, and like most majorities they see no need to make any concession to the minority, their attitude being: "we're the majority, why should we?"; so we are supposed to engage in meaningless small talk and become slaves to fashion, even if we think it is silly, because they don't. This is not right and it will take a lot of time and patience on our part to change it. |
Suggesting that unlike other group whose state of mind and clinical status has legal relevance in criminal proceedings, because we are a minority that the majority prefers not to bother accommodating, we should bow down as slaves to this and actually scape goat any of our kind if they threaten our “public image” (as though any other group, including the majority is either free of criminals, or not entitled to have their state of mind and clinical status into account when they are accused of committing a crime), while advocating against equal consideration and equitable accommodation before the law, seems rather counter productive to me.
| Quote: | | For the minority to have the same attitude is not only wrong, it is foolish. |
Actually the legal relevance of the state of mind (in Anglo Western based justice systems), of the accused is long standing and well established, although becoming increasingly eroded. It should concern anyone when basic, long standing tenets recognized as integral to natural justice, for hundreds of years, are stealthily eroded. Justice is not in my view a “minority issue”. Justice is about and should be for everyone.
| Quote: |
Perhaps you would say that the reason so many aspies have such a foolish attitude is that we lack common sense, but I don't know where you got that from; I have never seen it in any discription of Aspergers or any of the diagnostic criteria. |
Non verbal communication is common sense. Pragmatic interpretation of language requires nothing more than common sense. Application of unspoken social rules/boundaries is simple common sense.Appreciating and the ability to effectively apply one’s own society’s cultural attitudes, takes nothing more than ordinary, every day common sense.
Common sense is not exactly a clinical term, it’s reflected in the clinical criteria by reference to the behavioral elements most useful for diagnostic purposes. However literature pertaining to AS often refers to common sense more explicitly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"First the sentence and then the trial." Through the Looking Glass.
Lacking a natural knowledge of things social does not excuse acts where things are written out in detail.
The Autism Defense has failed every test. It has failed on WP.
Only the Neurodiversity folks want to define us as retards, and sign up people for their agenda.
"I will continue to disrupt things at the highest level", says I have done so in the past.
First the trial, where only facts count.
AS is the weakest of Gary's defenses, Being British makes slightly more sense, but we have never judged anyone "Not guilty due to being British."
Mental state has never had anything to do with the facts of a case, only post conviction treatment.
He admits to trying to steal our alien technology, and our Alien Overlords said, "We are not amused." |
|
| Back to top |
|
phil777
Phoenix
Joined: May 21, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 2207
Location: Montreal, Québec
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I'll keep this short n sweet... The guy is somewhat guilty for doing what he did, but if the british government has any integrity, they'll let the british legal system judge him (and possibly allow american observants or even witnesses) instead of handing him over to the USA. =/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
On what charge could the British try him?
A second issue is we think he is a British Agent, they did refuse normal extradition, so we demanded him under the Spies and Terrorist Act.
The British Government seems to be running a coverup, trial by public opinion.
What started as a minor issue, Gary was offered a six month sentence, which is hardly long enough to hold a trial, just a period of questioning about how he broke into our highest security, has become, due to the refusal of the British Government, a question of the extent of their involvement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When you say "we" think Gary was acting as a British agent, are you speaking on behalf of a group or an organisation? The American prosecutors don't think that. Gary has undergone considerable investigation and several court hearings in the UK and and nobody in any of that process has suggested this either, so I was wondering who does think that.
Gary is painted as a master cyber criminal by the prosecuting authorities because it is embarrassing for them to have to acknowledge what he says, that back in 2001 many computers in US military and defence installations had default passwords only and could be accessed easily by an inexperienced hacker with a UFO obsession. It's also important that he is alleged to have caused damage above a certain value in order for his case to be within the scope of the extradition treaty.
This 'master hacker' was discovered because he forgot about the time zone difference and logged onto an insecure computer to search for UFO information at a time when it was late at night for him but during the working day for the person whose password he had used. Tracing him from there was made easier because he was using his girlfriend's email account. Very sophisticated!
I don't doubt Gary's diagnosis, which was made by a reputable expert, Professor Baron-Cohen. And it doesn't seem strange to me (given his age and the fact that AS would have been unknown when he was young) that this diagnosis was not made until after his arrest when the authorities became aware of his character and personality traits. Not that his diagnosis should exempt him from punishment - he knew that what he was doing was wrong and it doesn't excuse him that the reason he carried on anyway was because he was driven by his Special Interest. But the evidence that he has done any actual harm is really thin. He's being threatened with a 70 year sentence more to spare the blushes of some people in the US military than anything, and (not least because of his AS) he is not at all well equipped to have to deal with a highly politicised trial. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Stew54 wrote: | When you say "we" think Gary was acting as a British agent, are you speaking on behalf of a group or an organisation? The American prosecutors don't think that. Gary has undergone considerable investigation and several court hearings in the UK and and nobody in any of that process has suggested this either, so I was wondering who does think that.
I do. So do the Alien Overlords.
This 'master hacker' was discovered because he forgot about the time zone difference and logged onto an insecure computer to search for UFO information at a time when it was late at night for him but during the working day for the person whose password he had used. Tracing him from there was made easier because he was using his girlfriend's email account. Very sophisticated!
insecure computer? Give it a hug. Now how does Gary come to know the password of someone working DoD? That is not something to be found just looking around.
Here he is impersonating someone with security clearance, knows their password, username, and again, this is beyond a simple looking around on an open system.
I don't doubt Gary's diagnosis, which was made by a reputable expert, Professor Baron-Cohen. And it doesn't seem strange to me (given his age and the fact that AS would have been unknown when he was young) that this diagnosis was not made until after his arrest when the authorities became aware of his character and personality traits. Not that his diagnosis should exempt him from punishment - he knew that what he was doing was wrong and it doesn't excuse him that the reason he carried on anyway was because he was driven by his Special Interest. But the evidence that he has done any actual harm is really thin. He's being threatened with a 70 year sentence more to spare the blushes of some people in the US military than anything, and (not least because of his AS) he is not at all well equipped to have to deal with a highly politicised trial. |
Then he should not spy on the Pentagon. He should not use someone else's username and password.
Gary innocently impersonated an Officer of the United States military, used their ID and password, to access Top Secret files on secure systems, and he got caught.
Also I find his comments about the thousands that died on 9/11 to be in poor taste.
He does state his purpose as being, "I will continue to disrupt things at the highest level." How is this related to UFOs?
If it was such a special interest, why is MUFON being silent? They know all the UFO people, and have never heard of Gary?
Will he also join MUFON after he was caught, like he is trying to join Asperger's?
How many books and articles on UFOs has he written? How many has he read?
Gary does have a special interest, he is a spy, he got caught. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Brutus
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 21, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:54 am Post subject: Gary does have a special interest, he is a spy, he got caugh |
|
|
| Who do you think he was spying for? |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He was spying, on advanced weapons and energy devices. That is as Top Secret as it gets.
He does not have to be an agent of a government to be a spy, for the information he was looking for has a broad market.
Private technology companies would like to know the Trade Secrets of the Department of Defense. The Trade Secrets of our leading companies are used in building the latest and greatest for government use. It is both Propriatory Information, and Government Top Secret.
Intel has the next few generations of chips in development years before they are sold to the public, and the first user is often government.
Energy companies do wonder why the US stopped building Atomic Reactors twenty years ago, and is now phasing out coal. It may look like there is another plan in the works, that we are running out the service life on what we have and not replacing it.
Atomic power is very expensive to produce, has a long life, and an endless after cost. Just learning that there was something else in the works would change the investment pattern.
So Banks and Brokers seek insider information, and will pay for it.
Then there are the people who would use a truck bomb and are looking for a target.
All of these people will pay for inside information.
Gary did use someone's user name, password, and was looking for sellable information. He was also looking at security, and how he came by the name and password is unclear. Planting a key stroke spybot comes to mind, on the next log on user name and password are captured.
He was navigating between NASA, Department of Defense, Pentagon, and so he was looking for links, where he could come in from the highest government levels to some small secret lab, that would have an open door to the Pentagon.
How far he got, what he saw, would not come out at trial, just that he crossed the line.
He is a proven and self admitted spy, and if he was working alone, SOLO as he said, he is much more dangerous than a Government Agent, where the spread of information would be contained.
While downloads leave records, just, save to CD, for what is shown on the screen does not. So he could have made records of everything he saw.
Gary has to answer some questions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why did you quote my post in an altered version when you were replying to it?
Who are the Alien Overlords? Can you tell us without putting yourself in danger? How did they tell you all this stuff about Gary that hasn't been revealed in any of his court hearings, or in the charges brought against him? I'm intrigued. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3540
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Stew54 wrote: | Why did you quote my post in an altered version when you were replying to it?
Who are the Alien Overlords? Can you tell us without putting yourself in danger? How did they tell you all this stuff about Gary that hasn't been revealed in any of his court hearings, or in the charges brought against him? I'm intrigued. |
As for your quote, sorry, I was trying to answer part at a time.
What I know about Gary is from his own words in news articles.
Some I picked up here, such as he was caught logging in when the real person who's username and password he used was on line.
The charges against Gary are simple, Unauthorized Access, many counts, each carries UP TO Ten years in jail and/or a fine of up to, $10,000. 70 years has been said, so seven counts.
Much like Breaking and Entering, or Burglery, why they did, what they did, is of little matter to the law.
Trespass is to enter without permission, Breaking and Entering is entering a secured place, and Burglery is taking something. They are degrees of the same act.
If Gary had stolen our most highly guarded secret, the link between Area 51 and the Alien Base on the far side of the Moon, he would still just be charged with Unauthorized Access.
Following the Roswell crash of 1947, within a year Bell Labs came up with the Transistor, a field where they held no prior art patents. Science was the Phone Company.
The best of the time, UNIVAC, filled rooms with tubes, a technology that had not changed in fifty years. Tesla invented most of what they used. He patented it in 1903.
Fifty years later it is an Intel 386 series micro chip with programed computing power. Windows 98.
That kind of technological advance comes from having a blueprint of where you are going.
Next we make the strongest lightest and longest lasting material from charcoal brickets, Carbon/Carbon.
We no longer build Aircraft Carriers, we have a plane that can take off in mid America, fly anywhere in the world, drop a bomb within one meter, and fly home. You will never see it coming, or going. Targeting can watch a moving target from space, read license numbers on cars, or follow one person.
We have an Internet where everyone can contact everyone, now. For free.
All that we have shared with the world.
So what does Gary say, we are using Alien Technology to build weapons, and Free Energy.
Once humans use a technology it is no longer Alien, it is Engineering. Nothing is Free.
The situation is fairly obvious, who we deal with is our business, and Gary was trying to steal.
Thieves are people who are obsessed with other people's property.
Gary can wet his pants and cry, people can say he is harmless, but the technology he was trying to steal is many times worse than a few hundred suitcase nukes.
Without the supervision of The Overlords, testing the technology would turn England into a glowing lake of molten rock flowing into the ocean, at the least.
Send Gary, before the Overlords take care of it themselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
