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Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Surely the Alien Overlords can arrange for him to be collected, possibly in a black helicopter, and taken to meet the fate he deserves - why all this messing about with extradition treaties? |
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TheNewRepublic
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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The conduct of Gary and his supporters over the last few years do him little credit. They have spuriously claimed that he was to be extradited as a terrorist, that he could be sent to Gitmo and that he would be sent to a Federal Supermax prison.
The last court papers I read, and which are widely available, demolished all of these claims in a few paragraphs.
I have to say however, that the Court's acceptance of the American assurances that McKinnon would have proper psychiatric care once in the US, doesn't seemed to be based on anything other than blind faith. 10 minutes on any US prisoner support forum paints a pretty grim picture in even the 'best' institutions.
Gary should be grateful that he's on a Federal charge and will go to a federal prison - the Virginia state prisons, where he is to be tried, are absolutely appalling.
Would it be fair to sum up by saying "McKinnon does not have wide support in the Autistic community?" |
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whitetiger
Passionate Advocate
Joined: Feb 04, 2009
Age: 40
Posts: 1509
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Gary did a very bad thing. He didn't do it because he was autistic.
My points were:
(1) The proposed punishment is too harsh.
(2) He should not be extradited.
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TheNewRepublic
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I read the prosecutor that had originally work on the case, said that he was actually looking at around 6 years. The ten years for each of the charges is the maximum... His offences were by no means as serious as they might have been.
Six years still seems like a long time. And I think his chances of surviving six years in an American prison are pretty slim... |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3538
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Prosecuters use the max as leverage, and even six is over the top. First, the seven charges if they are all for the same offense, are the same offense.
Any decent lawyer could get it combined in one charge, or demand seven trials.
With Up To Ten years, and/or a fine Up To $10,000, Gary should be more worried about the fine.
Unlawful Access is Trespassing, if he took nothing, left nothing, it is a minor charge.
Gary is not very bright, and his legal advisors are worse. When the door was open for pre trial deals, he did not make an offer. He could have made a deal for a short stay at the country club, Elgin Air Force Base, where White Collar goes.
We have a range of Federal Prisons, they hold some nasty people. While drug offenders do not sound bad, most of the investigation starts because of the bodies that start showing up.
We do have Super Max, where even the other prisoners and guards do not feel safe. Some people are just bad.
Gary becomes an issue when the British Government stops his extradition. It is them that are being made to comply with an extradition treaty.
They are still blocking him being questioned. It looks bad.
America has a very good reason to want to know everything he did, and how he did it.
People get sent to prison for harming other people, and Gary harmed the entire United States.
I do not think it had anything to do with an Asperger's UFO obsession.
What should happen to him is only up to the Judge. Only the Judge will know all the details.
First, Gary is eligible for bail. Trials are about what the parties cannot agree on. It is expensive, time consuming, and best avoided.
Gary has admitted his guilt, but has refused to deal with it, and so has the Government of Britian.
We find this strange behavior from an ally in time of war, with our troops in the field together.
Gary is a minor problem, he did get caught, but we would like to know where he got a Department of Defense Username and Password. |
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Asmodeus
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 783
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | | Gary is a minor problem, he did get caught, but we would like to know where he got a Department of Defense Username and Password. |
He didn't . He breached several layers of security to access the information he got to. It wasn't a simple matter of guessing, or copying a script from some public website, otherwise any idiot (not in the White House) with some free time and internet access would be playing with aircraft carriers and America's secrets. |
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Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Actually Gary claims that all he did was to search for computers which had never had the default password reset, that he didn't have the ability to hack his way into any kind of secure system. That may or may not be true, but it's fair to say that all the rest of his conduct suggests that he is not in any way a sophisticated hacker - going onto someone's screen whilst they were actually at work for instance, and not even using an anonymous email account.
I disagree with Inventor on a couple of points.
| Quote: | | Gary is not very bright, and his legal advisors are worse. |
Gary may or may not be academically bright. He plainly isn't very streetwise. His lawyers on the other hand are doing a fine job, launching a series of appeals to every possible court, raising the public awareness of Gary's case, and cleverly tying his case to the more general disquiet in the UK over a series of rather unfair treaties that were forced on us by the USA in recent years, of which the Extradition Act 2003 is probably the one to which there is the greatest public objection.
and
| Quote: | Gary becomes an issue when the British Government stops his extradition. It is them that are being made to comply with an extradition treaty.
They are still blocking him being questioned. It looks bad. |
The British Government isn't blocking the extradition, because it can't. They are allowing Gary to pursue all the appeals that the law entitles him to because, well, the British Government is bound by the law so they can't stop him from doing that. I think that Gary probably will be extradited, because that's what the treaty requires, but it might be a catalyst for Britain to junk some of the one-sided treaties we signed during the time that Blair was totally in thrall to Bush. We're allies not servants, after all.
I'd like to think that when he does get to the USA to face trial Gary will be tried for what he has actually done and in context. He committed some naive and fairly silly incursions into some insecure systems back in 2001. These days there aren't insecure systems in the US Government or military and someone with Gary's limited skills wouldn't get in. I read in the press recently that the Department for Homeland Security alone fends of literally millions of cyber attacks every day, and most of those are far more determined and malicious than Gary's efforts ever were. Of those millions of attacks every day I wonder how many have led to determined attempts to track down and extradite those responsible on a par with the effort that has gone into punishing a soft target like Gary McKinnon? My guess is that it is a very small number. |
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TheNewRepublic
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Very good points, Stew.
He was just a silly, overgrown boy. I think he's learned his lesson.
Time to move on I think... |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3538
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I can see that by causing Gary to have to have the best legal team possible for International Law, to appeal everything in every possible court, and to put forth his case in every media outlet, and seek support from American groups to support his Asperger's defense, he has already had to spend his pocket money, and has been punished enough.
Those evil Americans have caused Gary to launch a million dollar defense.
I have worked on a lot of Government computers, they all carry the same program going back to Windows 95 at least. The first screen says, WARNING! Then the 10 year $10,000 thing, then enter user name and password.
Getting in is not enough, access is further restricted, user groups have a limited range.
Those who work for Social Security cannot just go see what the Department of Defense is up to.
The story of Gary showing up on the screen of a user, says that computer did have a user name and password, and it was not Default.
Firewalls keep out non verified traffic, and even that virus that just happened to be attached to a picture of a cute kitten that was emailed to someone at work.
There are higher levels of security, each is further restricted. Somehow, Gary entered the verification codes.
The FBI public web page has been hacked and defaced, but no one ever got into the back room where they keep J. Edger's little black dress collection.
Even for non government, hundreds are hunted down world wide for launching internet viruses, denial of service attacks on competitor web sites, ebay fraud, and using profanity on neurological community web sites.
The old USSR Cyber Warfare School turned out some of the best hackers, when term papers were due we got a wave of novel trys. Our Security was trained by the best. They were so good, we sent them birthday greetings at home. I miss the Cold War, you can depend on enemies, but friends are questionable.
The Chinese are internet babies, have conceptual differance, are easy to spot, and Chineses spies are referred to The U. S. Government Printing Office, where much better information can be had for a small printing charge.
We have offered to pay Gary's airfare, free room and board, better healthcare than our citizens get, and all we want are the answers to a few questions. |
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Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Should you be telling us all this Inventor? I'd hate for you to go to jail on our account.
I've just spent a few minutes searching for cases of computer criminals extradited to the USA. There aren't very many in the context of "millions of attacks a day". I found a couple of dozen cases altogether, some going back at least ten years, and most of those extradited successfully have committed large scale computer frauds often netting hundreds of thousands of dollars. The one in his recent story is typical: http://www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_portal_view.aspx?s=sa&id=1767
Earlier this year the celebrated Israeli cyber-crook The Analyzer (Ehud Tenebaum) agreed to be sent from Canada to the US for trial but that was for obtaining millions of dollars in commercial fraud on ATMs. He is of course a life-long professional hacker with an international reputation. Years ago (in fact just a few months before McKinnon's little escapade) Tenenbaum first became well known by hacking into the Pentagon and NASA in a much more spectacular way than McKinnon did. But for all the headlines and the special FBI task force set up to track him across the globe he wasn't extradited when he was tracked down. He was allowed to be tried in Israel and he got - a community service order! Two US collaborators were tried in the US for helping him and got - probation! Do you wonder why it seems irrational and unjust that for carrying out far less damaging attacks a few months after this, and in the most amateur way imaginable, Gary McKinnon has been pursued by the US authorities for seven years and they continue to insist that when they get hold of him they will lock him away for decades.
This case has little to do with Gary's autism I think. That's just a factor which makes him particularly vulnerable to being subject to a miscarriage of justice if his appeals are unsuccessful and he has to face some irrationally vengeful prosecutors operating in a country he doesn't know and under a system he isn't familiar with. |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3538
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have only told what is public knowledge.
So the crafty do make deals, and in return for saying how they did it, closing that door, they do get away.
It is always if you do not cooperate you will get the book thrown at you.
So Ehud Tenebaum trade knowledge for a deal, perhaps Gary should talk to him.
Facing the death penelty, a deal can be made for life with the possibility of parole, for telling where the body is.
Gary was offered a deal, he refused.
He did it, was caught, admitted it. The next step is to document everything he did, how, who else was involved, everything else he knows that would be of interest, like all those other hackers he saw, and try to resolve as many questions as possible. As we say, "The Truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."
Gary does not want to play our silly American games.
What can we think but he has done something horrible, is hiding it, and we will try him with that in mind.
Your Honor, I did something really dumb, I accept that, but I have done everything in my power to bring out the whole truth, reduce the damage I have caused, and fully cooperated with all questions.
It is the Judge that will look at the record and pronounce Gary's fate.
Gary has not been playing his part well. |
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TheNewRepublic
Emu Egg
Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Inventor,
His conduct during the last few years isn't going to play well with the judge.
And the judge in the UK at one of the recent hearings said that the trauma of the last 8 years for Gary was all of his own making and I think the implication was that it shouldn't have any bearing on the outcome.. |
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Stew54
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Age: 48
Posts: 30
Location: Birmingham, England
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | So the crafty do make deals, and in return for saying how they did it, closing that door, they do get away.
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What makes you think Tenenbaum and his co-conspirators made a deal? They certainly didn't need to explain to anybody what they'd done, because it was obvious to the investigators at the time. They accessed various Pentagon and NASA computers that had not had a security patch applied, though it had been released many months previously, and so they were readily open to attack. McKinnon is understood to have trawled US government systems looking for computers where the password was still "password".
So it won't wash I'm afraid, Inventor. McKinnon is being treated completely differently to precedents that the US authorities have themselves set in the cases of other hackers, some of them much more determined and malicious than he has been shown to have been. Even the bargain he is said to have turned down would have seen him punished ten times more severely than has been the case in the past for hackers with far more guile and menace about their attacks than McKinnon. He says incidentally that he was advised to turn down the plea bargain because the prosecutors would not guarantee it, and so it was feared to be simply a ruse to persuade him to drop his appeal against extradition.
Perhaps there is a good-faith reason for this different treatment, but if so the prosecutors have declined to provide any evidence of it for literally years whilst this process has dragged through one court after another. At the moment (and there's a ton of information about this case available to the public) none of the possible reasons for this different treatment reflect well on the prosecutors. The most plausible option from all those I've seen suggested seems to be an institutional need to cover the embarrassment of there being so many computers in federal and military networks that anyone could access with a little patience. If they can somehow get a friendly US court to agree that McKinnon, despite all the evidence to the contrary, was an evil computer genius of unprecedented cunning and skill then people will accept that the networks were really as secure as they should have been, and that nobody had screwed up after all. All it takes is one fall guy to get everyone off the hook, and well, he's foreign anyway! |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 3538
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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I have worked the field, I never saw a computer with "Password' as the password. They do not come that way.
All ways in have Username and Password, he did get in.
In another story on WP, he logged in while the actual user of the name and password was on line.
Gary does not tell the truth.
That is why we have to hold a trial. |
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lau
Really nice person to know. :)
Joined: Jun 18, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 9467
Location: Somerset UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Inventor wrote: | I have worked the field, I never saw a computer with "Password' as the password. They do not come that way.
All ways in have Username and Password, he did get in.
In another story on WP, he logged in while the actual user of the name and password was on line.
Gary does not tell the truth.
That is why we have to hold a trial. |
I have worked the field, and I have seen several systems with "password" (all lower case) as the password. The best I have seen is a whole school, where everything was set up with "changethis" as the password - and years later, that was still the password for every user on every machine.
I have seen many systems that require no login. No username, no password. Even when accessed via a dial-in line. I have also read "Hackers" by Steven Levy, which exemplifies America at its best - open. Then there are all those handy "back door" access methods, that the original programmer needed for testing, and later "forgot" to remove. (I've done those, but I've removed them.)
I have no idea what is special about logging in at the same time as the "actual user" is online. Few systems do anything about a user logging in from multiple places - it tends to be awfully counter-productive, in my experience (when someone was forced to drive three miles, back to their secure office on another site, in order to log off their machine there, then drive back again, to log in where they were to start with, but were prevented from logging in because they were already logged in elsewhere).
Would you care to "tell the truth" about the 23rd machine you ever used a username and password to log in to? Would you care to do so in Tibet, without an interpreter?
I see no need for a trial... in America. I can understand that the US are afraid of how much of their poor security might be revealed to the public, by an open trial in his own country - much better to hide the whole business. Instead, maybe one of your many national agencies should offer Gary a highly remunerative job, showing them exactly what he did, and further examining their security, if they think that Gary is such a brilliant expert on circumventing "security".
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"Striking up conversations with strangers is an autistic person's version of extreme sports." Kamran Nazeer |
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