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pandabear
Fleeting Body
Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2912
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 Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if the Southern states would have developed their own standard form of English? Or perhaps an entirely new language would have evolved, distinct from English? Something like the way that Afrikaans descended from Flemish?
Do any Southern grammar school teachers cringe at the diction?
"If the South wooda won the war weeda had it made..."
It really isn't any different from Ebonics. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
Posts: 4795
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| SirTwittThornwaite wrote: | The USA would now be CSA. The nation would probably be more caucasian, gun possession not an issue.
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There is no way the CSA could -conquer- the USA. The best they could hope for is that the USA would recognize them as an independent and sovereign nation.
The USA had twice the population of the CSA and three times the white populatation of the CSA. The USA was richer and better armed. The only question is whether the folks in the USA would get tired of fighting the war and settle with the CSA. Apparently not.
ruveyn |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 8449
Location: Omnipresent
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SirTwittThornwaite wrote: | The USA would now be CSA. The nation would probably be more caucasian, gun possession not an issue.
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Yeah, ruveyn is quite right on this issue. The North had a stronger economy, a more industrial economy, and more people. The south had more military experience, but still, the south could never really hope to take over the North.
| zer0netgain wrote: | | The war of secession had nothing to do with slavery. It was about economics. |
Well, it really seems to me that most of the Southern states mention slavery in their declarations of secession rather clearly. I mean, I will agree that the Civil War was not about the morality of slavery, but rather about the economic results. After all, the North didn't go to war planning to free the slaves, but rather because they disagreed with the secession.
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pandabear
Fleeting Body
Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Age: 50
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| zer0netgain wrote: | The war of secession had nothing to do with slavery. It was about economics.
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This is what people from the South say all the time. It makes them feel better. Germans will also tell you that the USA did not enter the Second World War to save the Jews. This is also true.
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The USA would now be CSA. The nation would probably be more caucasian
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Actually, slaves outnumbered free people in several of the Southern states. Granted, many of the slaves were more white than black, but I don't really know how many. I don't think that the Census really counted slaves by race.
The USA used to have strong restrictions against immigration from non-Whites--especially Chinese and Japanese. I don't really know why. But, most of them went to the West Coast rather than the old CSA. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| pandabear wrote: |
The USA used to have strong restrictions against immigration from non-Whites--especially Chinese and Japanese. I don't really know why. But, most of them went to the West Coast rather than the old CSA. |
Most Chinese immigration was post Civil War. Chinese labor was sought to help build the western ends of the transcontinental railroads.
ruveyn |
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david_42
Sea Gull
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
Posts: 211
Location: PNW, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Harry Harrison has explored this in several directions. In one series, the CSA gets enough backing from Europe to stop the war. They don't really win. A second war occurs a generation later over the development of the west. Then WWI with the CSA and USA on opposite sides; ditto WW2.
I really prefer his series where Prince Albert dies a little earlier and the British come in for the CSA. Has some interesting twists.
Like all of his alternate fictions, they are very will constructed and reflect a deep knowledge of the politics of the time. |
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Friskeygirl
Deinonychus
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Age: 25
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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There was a movie awhile back called C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America that covered this topic, It would have
been a very different would we be living in is the south had won, I actually had great great grandfathers who fought on
both sides in that war.
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claire333
Huh?
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Posts: 3189
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I never was good at supposing...
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pandabear
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Age: 50
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ruveyn wrote: | | pandabear wrote: |
The USA used to have strong restrictions against immigration from non-Whites--especially Chinese and Japanese. I don't really know why. But, most of them went to the West Coast rather than the old CSA. |
Most Chinese immigration was post Civil War. Chinese labor was sought to help build the western ends of the transcontinental railroads.
ruveyn |
Indentured servitude, wasn't it? Maybe somewhat better than slavery, but not a whole lot.
If the South had won, then cheap Chinese labour would have been completely unnecessary. |
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SirTwittThornwaite
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Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Friskeygirl wrote: | There was a movie awhile back called C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America that covered this topic, It would have
been a very different would we be living in is the south had won, I actually had great great grandfathers who fought on
both sides in that war. |
I had one grandfather in the Waffen SS, the other one in the Wehrmacht. The SS was much mor fun than the Wehrmacht, they agreed. |
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ruveyn
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| pandabear wrote: |
Indentured servitude, wasn't it? Maybe somewhat better than slavery, but not a whole lot.
If the South had won, then cheap Chinese labour would have been completely unnecessary. |
Wage labor. The wages were not very good.
If the CSA had won, then Southron railways would have been built by chattel slaves. Northern railways would still have been built by wage labor. Also they would have been better since the Yankee, George Westinghouse invented both the air-brake and block signals.
if the CSA had won the Union would have been smaller, but not conquered. There is no way a country with five million white citizens and four million negro slaves could occupy and conquer a republic with twenty million citizens. It could not have been done. As it was, much of the manpower of Dixie was employed in preventing slaves from escaping to the north.
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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history_of_psychiatry
Poopenheimer
Joined: Dec 23, 2006
Age: 25
Posts: 1233
Location: America's penis (Florida)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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No offense as I've lived in the south most of my life but if the southern states won the war I'd be living up north. There are many great southern people who are absolutely loveable, but down here there are also way too many rednecks and religionists for my taste and I'd hate to see what life would be like if they had their way.
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 52
Posts: 6741
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:19 am Post subject: |
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The Harry Harrison books were fun; also check out the long series of books by Harry Turtledove. About 6-7 novels set between the Civil War and WWII (the South gets a Hitler, and it gets stranger from that).
I remember reading about the CSA movie; commercials for slave dealers, etc.
There was a book written back in the 30s (I think...it was definitely a hardback), about 'If the South had won the Civil War'...but there's been many treatings of it over the years.
Surprisingly, the South was much closer to Socialism (including an internal police arm charged with executing deserters) back then. The war was about a lot of things; Preserving the Union (North), State's Rights (South), some economics (the Irish were cheap labor at that time), and overall intransigence. It took 3 amendments to clean up the Constitution from the provisions for slavery (3/5ths of a 'person' for Census and representatives' allocation)
It would have been strange...
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ruveyn
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Joined: Sep 22, 2008
Age: 73
Posts: 4795
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| pakled wrote: |
There was a book written back in the 30s (I think...it was definitely a hardback), about 'If the South had won the Civil War'...but there's been many treatings of it over the years.
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I think this is a short novel by McKinley Kantor. There was also a novel by Ward Moor entitled -Bring the Jubilee-. I believe Winston Churchill (yes, that Churchill) also wrote an essay on what would have happened if the CSA won its independence.
There are also several alternative history novels by Harry Turtledove on the subject. One of the, The Guns of the South is fairly good.
ruveyn |
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Cyanide
Leader of Shadaloo
Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Posts: 1835
Location: Twin Cities, MN. Formerly OR.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, like someone else said, I think the country would've been split into the CSA, Cascadia, and the USA. The reason the Cascadia movement fell through though, is because the US government put on a huge propaganda campaign that linked it with the south and slavery...
But I think it would've been better if we split up. The south could have their own little backwater, impoverished, theocratic, racist republic to themselves without them bothering the rest of us. Then we in the ol' Pacific Northwest could have our tree-hugging, hippie place without anyone bothering us.
Who knows, though. Maybe more regions would've ended up splitting off? |
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