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pandabear
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17 Jul 2011, 10:08 am

HereComesTheRain wrote:
OK, you forgive me. But you do have to admit there are a lot of overlapping parallels between the IBF and the JWs in their internal politics, right?


Yes. But the Baptists will still be happy to tell you that the JWs are completely wrong.



Philologos
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17 Jul 2011, 10:12 am

pandabear wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Some doctrines of SOME Baptists are not so far from SOME Jehovian doctrines.


Ask some of your evangelical acquaintances their opinion of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I can assure you that the word "cult" will be employed in a disparaging way.


A. I am well aware of how the Jehovah's Witnesses are viewed from the standard of Nicene Christianity whether liturgical or American Evangelical in flavor.

B. I have politely commented on some of the issues to kxmode who is polite and serious to a fault

C How often have you heard "cult" used in 20th or 21st century English in a neutral or positive sense?

D. I know that some former Jehovah's Witnesses have been heard to describe their experiences in terms that might justify the use of the term "cult", but I have no direct contact other than at the front door.

E. Are you quaslified as a deprogrammer, and if so is it ethical for you to work on kxmode?



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17 Jul 2011, 10:12 am

Fnord wrote:
KXmode? Hello? Is this thing on?


Some people are taking a kind of perverted joy in attacking KX. While he has certain beliefs that I do not share, there is just no good reason for ridicule. KX always produces long though out posts, this rapid fire nonsense is not aimed, in any way, to get a response.


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Fnord
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17 Jul 2011, 10:20 am

What ridicule? I'm only asking that he provide evidence to support his claims, and to explain the "anomalies" in Watchtower's flawed doctrine.


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17 Jul 2011, 10:22 am

91 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
KXmode? Hello? Is this thing on?


Some people are taking a kind of perverted joy in attacking KX. While he has certain beliefs that I do not share, there is just no good reason for ridicule. KX always produces long though out posts, this rapid fire nonsense is not aimed, in any way, to get a response.


It is aimed to get a response. We want to know what KXmode's feelings are on this video, if he feels if there's an overlap between this fundamentalist group and his church. I didn't ridicule him nor did I try to goad him. So far, I'm being quite respectful of his faith. I didn't say it was "stupid" or used any ad hominem attacks against his religion. I simply asked him his thoughts on this video and if he thinks there are any parallels between his religion and the IBF.

Just because you have to show respect to somebody's religion doesn't mean you can't ask critical questions about the faith. Truth is determined by asking critical questions which may or may not be flattering to the other side, not by sycophancy. My strong and heated bias against the religion aside, I just asked KXMode an unflattering but sincere question about his views on this video. Again, just because he deserves respect because of his beliefs doesn't make him immune to scrutiny or sincere criticism. I'm not slandering him nor his religion, since everything I've posted so far that was critical about his faith can be backed up by a reliable source.

Anyway, KXmode, care to comment on this video? Do you personally think the parallels between this church and your church not similar? You can stay silent if you wish, but don't think we won't interpret your silence as evasion.



Philologos
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17 Jul 2011, 11:42 am

91 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
KXmode? Hello? Is this thing on?


Some people are taking a kind of perverted joy in attacking KX. While he has certain beliefs that I do not share, there is just no good reason for ridicule. KX always produces long though out posts, this rapid fire nonsense is not aimed, in any way, to get a response.


Ditto and amen. I do not know why kxmode is the one with the monkey avatar - there are some more Bandar-log than he.



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17 Jul 2011, 12:54 pm

I tend to think the religious folks most likely to evangelize are those who have the least real faith in their religion. They need other people to agree with them in order to feel more secure, so they're constantly seeking to convert others. That's also why they're the first to run away when faced with arguments against their belief systems. It troubles them.
Just my hypothesis.



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17 Jul 2011, 2:53 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I tend to think the religious folks most likely to evangelize are those who have the least real faith in their religion. They need other people to agree with them in order to feel more secure, so they're constantly seeking to convert others. That's also why they're the first to run away when faced with arguments against their belief systems. It troubles them.
Just my hypothesis.


Being a former member of his faith, I can pretty much tell you that the reason why he's probably evangelizing is because deep down inside, he believes he has "The Truth" and is trying to save all of us from the perils of the world. He's also probably putting this down as "time" on his little *time card slip* sheet so he can bolster his personal preaching statistics at the local Kingdom Hall congregation. But then again, that's my hypothesis. I don't know KXmode personally nor will we ever get the chance to because he's technically banned from talking to me since I'm an *"Apostate"*.

Knowing JWs, he ran from this topic because he's either been caught flatfooted in this debate and hasn't been told by his *Reasoning With The Scriptures* book how to address this issue or he's been told to not talk to people who ask questions that are too critical to his faith.

In short, he's a shill. What's worse, he's a shill with AS whose key interest is WT proselytizing and history. It means not only does he have an extensive knowledge-base and knowhow of JW talking points and strawmen which would make him seem like a formidable debater, but he also won't get a clue that nobody wants religion slammed down their throats. He's probably been sheltered from communicating with us "worldly" people (Nonwitnesses) and is not familiar with the concept of religion being a personal decision and a journey of self-discovery and not something people would like to be sold or debated into believing in.



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17 Jul 2011, 4:58 pm

It is also likely that he has not really studied the Bible. Otherwise, he would have found numerous passages that are in direct conflict with what JW/Watchtower has done or taught in the past. My previous mention of the failed Watchtower prophesies versus the Book of Deuteronomy, for instance.

The unexamined faith is not worth believing. The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses know this (as do the Mormon leaders and the leaders of the Roman Catholic church), so they tend to discourage the laity from studying their Bibles. Instead, the leaderships tend to tell the laity only what they want the laity to believe.

Such as, "All those who challenge or even question our teachings are going to Hell".


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17 Jul 2011, 5:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
It is also likely that he has not really studied the Bible. Otherwise, he would have found numerous passages that are in direct conflict with what JW/Watchtower has done or taught in the past. My previous mention of the failed Watchtower prophesies versus the Book of Deuteronomy, for instance.


I have serious issues with some of the claims made by the watchtower organization. I find their views to be utterly irreconcilable with a proper scriptural exegesis. That said, one of the things I do admire about JWs is the fact that they have an appreciation for apologetics. They are also far more humble, as a rule, when discussing scriptural matters, than I am.


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17 Jul 2011, 10:04 pm

91 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It is also likely that he has not really studied the Bible. Otherwise, he would have found numerous passages that are in direct conflict with what JW/Watchtower has done or taught in the past. My previous mention of the failed Watchtower prophesies versus the Book of Deuteronomy, for instance.


I have serious issues with some of the claims made by the watchtower organization. I find their views to be utterly irreconcilable with a proper scriptural exegesis. That said, one of the things I do admire about JWs is the fact that they have an appreciation for apologetics. They are also far more humble, as a rule, when discussing scriptural matters, than I am.

It's an act, bubbela ... it's all an act ...


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17 Jul 2011, 11:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
It is also likely that he has not really studied the Bible. Otherwise, he would have found numerous passages that are in direct conflict with what JW/Watchtower has done or taught in the past. My previous mention of the failed Watchtower prophesies versus the Book of Deuteronomy, for instance.


Quote:
It's an act, bubbela ... it's all an act ...


If anyone has not guessed this, I too am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Fnord has made a lot of big claims, but I don't see him backing them up with proof. Where are quotations from Watchtower or Awake? Do we know for sure that he has even read them?

Our organization admits when we are wrong, unlike many other religious organizations. We have changed policy whenever we realize that our policy conflicts with what turns out to be truth. We hold to a strict moral code that is enforced even on our brothers in leadership positions. We are a progressive society that looks to the future with hope and want to spread that hope to others.

You call that an act?

I do not know kxmode outside of this panel, but I have never seen him ridicule anyone the way you are trying to do to him. It seems you hurt him, and he forgives you. And you push that forgiveness aside. What's going on here, Fnord? Where does this venom come from? If kxmode doesn't wish to answer your claims about JW's, I will. But give me facts to go on.



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17 Jul 2011, 11:10 pm

kladky wrote:
If anyone has not guessed this, I too am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, THAT explains a lot!
kladky wrote:
Fnord has made a lot of big claims, but I don't see him backing them up with proof. Where are quotations from Watchtower or Awake? Do we know for sure that he has even read them?


Ask, and ye shall receive:
Fnord wrote:
The Watchtower organization has claimed to be the prophet of God, yet it has made numerous false prophecies. The excuse given for their false prophecies has been to quote Proverbs 4:18, which says, "But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." Whether or not the "light gets brighter" or not, does not change the fact that the Watchtower made false prophecies. The Bible says in Deut. 18:20-22, "‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..."

> Link to a comprehensive listing of The Failed Prophecies of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

If the New World Translation (NWT) condemns false prophesying and states that it is proof that God is not speaking through that prophet, then doesn’t this prove that the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is not speaking for God?

Shouldn't the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society disband itself under the Law of Deuteronomy 18:20-22?

Or is that yet another of the "Inconvenient Truths" that Jehovah's Witnesses collectively choose to ignore?

Now, if you actually had read my posts - especially the ones in this thread - than you would have seen this information already.

A few questions for you:

1. Why does the Watchtower [WT] translate "ego eimi" as "I am" in 133 out of 134 New Testament occurrences, with the sole exception that proves Christ is God in John 8:58? Here WT translates "ego eimi" as "I have been". Why?

2. Why does the WT translate the New Testament word for Lord (ie. "Kurios") as Jehovah, except where it proves Christ is God? For example, "Jesus Christ is Lord" in Philippians 2:11 and "Jesus is Lord" in 1 Corinthians 12:3.

3. Can you say that Jesus Christ is Lord? (see 1 Corinthians 12:3).

4. Why does the WT add "other" four times in Colossians 1:16, 17 and in Philippians 2:9 to deny Christ's deity, when "other" is not in any of the earliest known New Testament manuscripts? Is it right for WT to add words to the Bible that change Biblical doctrines?

5. Why does the WT change "worship" in Hebrews 1:8 in the 1961 NWT edition, to "do obeisance" in the 1971 NWT edition, if not to deny Christ the worship as God?

6. If WT did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many Witnesses left the faith immediately afterward?

7. If the Watchtower organization rejects others calling them "inspired" yet the Watchtower organization does call themselves "God's Spirit-directed Prophet" what is the difference? Is there such a thing as an "uninspired prophet"?

8. What is your relationship to KXmode; how well do you know him and for how long?

9. Since the Organization has received "new light" regarding the 1914 generation, and completely changed their view on this, does this mean that all the former Jehovah's witnesses who were dis-fellowshipped years ago for the same view the organization is now teaching will automatically be accepted into fellowship again? Weren't these Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses in fact dis-fellowshipped for truth and knew things that the governing body did not?

10. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the only true name for God is "Jehovah", and that the only way God's name can be sanctified is by calling God by His true name. To call God by any other name is to dishonor Him. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses put an exclusive emphasis on the name "Jehovah", how can they honestly say they are being obedient to Acts 1:8? Keep in mind the insertion of the name Jehovah in the New Testament by Jehovah's Witnesses goes completely against what is found in the early manuscripts of the New Testament.

Now, please answer these questions without attacking me for asking them.


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18 Jul 2011, 1:43 am

I haven't responded to your questions because of the tone in which you ask them. Paul councils us to "If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men." (Romans 12:18) Your questions don't seem to show me that you have a sincere desire to learn what we believe, or what the bible says, or even to learn the truths behind your questions... it sounds like you want to get into an argument. I simply won't do that.

Paul knew exactly where questions like yours can lead when we wrote "turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights." (2 Timothy 2:23) He goes on, "But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one." (verses 24-26) My goal in life isn't to help people who don't care what I believe. Why would I waste my time? It leads nowhere.

I will say that I read and study the bible almost every night. (As a side note this Tuesday evening as part of the weekly bible reading I'm assigned to read Psalms 77:1-20 in front of 90 people. I've lost count the number of times I've read these verses to prepare for this assignment.) Do I need to prove my knowledge? No. As I learned from a Watchtower lesson today when Satan dared Jesus, at Matthew 4:5, 6, to hurl himself off the temple battlement he wanted Jesus to be overly concerned with his own reputation as God's son, even to the point of making a showy display. Satan knew that a person might accept a dangerous dare because of pride and a desire not to lose face in front of others. In essence what you're doing is daring me to respond to your questions to prove I know my "stuff" in order to save face in front of others. But since it is already clear to me you, and for the most part the rest of PPR, looks at me and my beliefs in utter contempt I see no reasons to respond to your questions.

I am in no way disrespecting you. I am simply offering a firm response. I hope no offense is meant.

And I still forgive you. :)


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Last edited by kxmode on 18 Jul 2011, 2:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

Dragonkisse
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18 Jul 2011, 1:56 am

Fnord I recognise your hood, in the pitcure, if it was black



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18 Jul 2011, 2:15 am

kxmode wrote:
Paul knew exactly where questions like yours can lead when we wrote "turn down foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing they produce fights." (2 Timothy 2:23) He goes on, "But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed; as perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one." (verses 24-26) My goal in life isn't to help people who don't care what I believe. Why would I waste my time? It leads nowhere.


While I appreciate the fact that you are under siege at the moment. I don't think Paul meant this to be an escape from the need to answer KEY questions. As it says in 1 Peter 3:15 'But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect'. When someone asks you the important questions about what it is you believe, it is not foolishness on their part, it is an opportunity for you. Also, Fnord may be asking, but he is not the only one listening.


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