Tuttle
Not a bird, a turtle.
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 2588
Location: Massachusetts
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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I've gotten into quite a few arguments with people who feel its impossible to be an autistic empath.
I'm very much autistic, and am diagnosed. I'm also very much an emapath.
I don't know how to explain feeling someone else's emotions other than with that description. That's really what it feels like. It's overwhelming, and can be very positive or very negative. I cannot understand the nonverbal cues they're giving at all, but I feel emotions that are other people's.
In my case, alexithymia makes this even more complicated. I feel other people's emotions, I can't read the nonverbal cues to understand them, my emotions and other people's emotions get intertwined with the ones I'm feeling on my own and I can't separate them out, I have no idea what I'm feeling for emotions, even when they're someone else's.
So basically it comes down to I feel other people's emotions, react to them as I'm feeling them, and have the same difficulties with putting words to them or identifying them as I do my native emotions.
It's not sympathizing with them, its not feeling bad for them in a bad situation because you know its a bad situation. It's feeling the pain that the other person is feeling, or the joy. It's... complicated.
And yes, its apparently very common in gifted individuals. What I read today said that it was even a stronger overexcitability than the intellectual one is on average.
At the level I'm talking about its not at all about being able to imagine what is happening to them happening to you. Some people I've talked to have thought the comparision to synestesia is a meaningful one - in that you can hear the color blue, in this, you feel emotions, in the same way you feel native emotions, instead of decoding them into things you can consciously comprehend and process (or as well as). |
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Kinme
Dinosaurlicious
Joined: Apr 14, 2012
Posts: 3223
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TechnoDog wrote: | | Kinme wrote: | | And when I saw that movie in theaters I burst into tears at this part. I was quite embarrassed. |
When did if I not got this wrong. Females become wrong to cry in public? It's a sad story. With maybe a happy ending. Unless your thinking, thats where I would like to be? Then you would cry. |
I'm not saying it's wrong; I just don't like expressing emotion like that publicly. |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Tuttle wrote: | I've gotten into quite a few arguments with people who feel its impossible to be an autistic empath.
I'm very much autistic, and am diagnosed. I'm also very much an emapath.
I don't know how to explain feeling someone else's emotions other than with that description. That's really what it feels like. It's overwhelming, and can be very positive or very negative. I cannot understand the nonverbal cues they're giving at all, but I feel emotions that are other people's.
In my case, alexithymia makes this even more complicated. I feel other people's emotions, I can't read the nonverbal cues to understand them, my emotions and other people's emotions get intertwined with the ones I'm feeling on my own and I can't separate them out, I have no idea what I'm feeling for emotions, even when they're someone else's.
So basically it comes down to I feel other people's emotions, react to them as I'm feeling them, and have the same difficulties with putting words to them or identifying them as I do my native emotions.
It's not sympathizing with them, its not feeling bad for them in a bad situation because you know its a bad situation. It's feeling the pain that the other person is feeling, or the joy. It's... complicated.
And yes, its apparently very common in gifted individuals. What I read today said that it was even a stronger overexcitability than the intellectual one is on average.
At the level I'm talking about its not at all about being able to imagine what is happening to them happening to you. Some people I've talked to have thought the comparision to synestesia is a meaningful one - in that you can hear the color blue, in this, you feel emotions, in the same way you feel native emotions, instead of decoding them into things you can consciously comprehend and process (or as well as). |
I strongly relate to this.
There are times when I'm with another person, and I'll very suddenly feel sad or depressed, or some other emotion that doesn't seem to jive with the situation or the thoughts I'd had msot recently. This is very confusing. I'll only later discover that, although the person I was with wasn't making it obvious, they were feeling the same emotion that had suddenly overcome me, but that there had been some event earlier that explains the way they were feeling. The only thing I can conclude is that I'm quite literally feeling the other person's emotion, without being aware of it.
I wonder if, for some of us, alexithymia is the result of the fact that we are times feeling our own emotions, the emotions of others or a combination of the two, and so it becomes quite confusing to determine the cause of the emotions.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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Dillogic
you know how it goes
Joined: Nov 25, 2011
Posts: 3307
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Straight from good old Wikipedia:
| Quote: | | While sympathy is a heightened awareness of another person's state of mind and his or her circumstances stemming from recognition of his or her feelings [9] empathy refers to a person's capacity to feel within or in another person's feelings [10] and most researchers now consider it "an emotional response that stems from another's emotional state or condition and that is congruent with the other's emotional state or situation" [11] |
Sympathy = you've been there
Empathy = you feel like you've been there, even though you haven't |
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UnLoser
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 623
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I used to be quite sensitive and empathetic, but, over the years, I've become somewhat desensitized to the suffering of others. |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Dillogic wrote: | Straight from good old Wikipedia:
| Quote: | | While sympathy is a heightened awareness of another person's state of mind and his or her circumstances stemming from recognition of his or her feelings [9] empathy refers to a person's capacity to feel within or in another person's feelings [10] and most researchers now consider it "an emotional response that stems from another's emotional state or condition and that is congruent with the other's emotional state or situation" [11] |
Sympathy = you've been there
Empathy = you feel like you've been there, even though you haven't |
Nowhere in that description from wikipedia does it define sympathy or empathy as you have.
Recognition of a person's emotions does not mean that you've experienced that emotion or circumstance. All that description is saying is that you see someone experiencing an emotion, and you recognize what that emotion is.
AKA sympathy=recognition and understanding of another's emotions or circumstances.
The article describes empathy as an emotion that is congruent to another person's emotion.
AKA empathy=experiencing the same emotion as another person.
I'm still not sure where you are getting your definitions. That wikipedia article comes nowhere close to defining sympathy as 'having been there' and empathy as 'feeling like you've been there.'
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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XFilesGeek
Pretentiousness personified.
Joined: Jul 25, 2010
Posts: 1791
Location: The Oort Cloud
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| fragileclover wrote: | | XFilesGeek wrote: | | I would still like an explanation as to how it's possible to experience someone else's emotions...... |
You can experience another's emotions in the sense that the cause of the emotion did not originate in you, but with the other person. It's difficult to describe if you've never experienced it yourself.
I used this example in another thread, but if you've ever felt afraid when the hero or heroine in a horror film is in immediate danger, then you've felt empathy. Most films require at least sympathy on part of their audience to be successful, but horror films require empathy on part of the audience.
When you feel fear in this situation, you are identifying yourself with the hero or heroine, and thus, technically experiencing THEIR fear. After all, YOU are not being chased by the monster...the character is. There is no rational reason to be afraid, but you are, because you are taking on the character's emotions.
If you are unable to connect to a horror film this way, it's either poorly made, or you are unable to properly empathize. |
I still don't see how that's experiencing someone else's emotions.
Technically, you're still just having your own emotional experience, it's just being triggered by seeing someone else in pain. In the case of the horror movie, the actor may not even be really feeling the emotions he's portraying, he's just making it look like he is; it's why it's called "acting."
Experiments with monkeys that are known to have no "theory of mind" have demonstrated that the animals react negatively to seeing other monkeys in distress. It's doubtful there's any higher-level cognitive process involved, it's just an adaptation that evolved in social animals to make it easier to cooperate and live in groups. And I don't see how it's a "gifted trait" if a bunch of monkeys can do it.
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"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced." |
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trappedinhell
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Age: 44
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mankey wrote: | | Any news article relating to deep subjects will make me a walking time bomb for days, especially if it involves veterans or animals, I just break down and snap. |
That's me. But not days. 34 years and counting. At the age of 9 discovered that people are suffering, and animals are suffering, and there is so much pain right now. I spent the rest of my life trying to fix it. Wrecked my life. Even "little" things overwhelm me. Like last night, a program on the radio about hedgehogs being killed. And a few days earlier, a podcast saying that grey squirrels "need" to be killed.
I cannot bear the idea of suffering, and especially the smug majority who spend their lives supporting the system that causes it.
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I NEED TO CHANGE MY USER NAME! In 2012 I met my soul mate. I never knew what happiness was until then. |
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WonderWoman
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Age: 60
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All the things in that article fit the profile of abuse. |
TecnoDog: Who is abusing whom in the article?
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"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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Tuttle
Not a bird, a turtle.
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 2588
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| XFilesGeek wrote: |
I still don't see how that's experiencing someone else's emotions.
Technically, you're still just having your own emotional experience, it's just being triggered by seeing someone else in pain. In the case of the horror movie, the actor may not even be really feeling the emotions he's portraying, he's just making it look like he is; it's why it's called "acting."
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I'd agree that that isn't an example of experiencing someone else's emotions. That's reacting to other people having emotions.
I'm trying to figure out how to explain feeling others emotions, and nothing is managing to get the little details right while discussing emotions. To turn to an easier to understand metaphor.
It's like most people watch someone eating a slice of watermelon and can imagine the flavor of watermelon. Some do so automatically, because they like watermelon or because they react strongly to that sort of situation. In this metaphorical situation, when someone like me watches someone eat a watermelon, even though we don't have watermelon in our mouths, we taste watermelon in our mouths, instead of imagining the taste of watermelon.
The fact that in that situation the taste receptors aren't triggering, doesn't mean the mind can tell the difference between the taste of watermelon when watching someone else eat it, and when that body is the one eating watermelon. |
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fragileclover
Velociraptor
Joined: May 22, 2009
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| XFilesGeek wrote: | | fragileclover wrote: | | XFilesGeek wrote: | | I would still like an explanation as to how it's possible to experience someone else's emotions...... |
You can experience another's emotions in the sense that the cause of the emotion did not originate in you, but with the other person. It's difficult to describe if you've never experienced it yourself.
I used this example in another thread, but if you've ever felt afraid when the hero or heroine in a horror film is in immediate danger, then you've felt empathy. Most films require at least sympathy on part of their audience to be successful, but horror films require empathy on part of the audience.
When you feel fear in this situation, you are identifying yourself with the hero or heroine, and thus, technically experiencing THEIR fear. After all, YOU are not being chased by the monster...the character is. There is no rational reason to be afraid, but you are, because you are taking on the character's emotions.
If you are unable to connect to a horror film this way, it's either poorly made, or you are unable to properly empathize. |
I still don't see how that's experiencing someone else's emotions.
Technically, you're still just having your own emotional experience, it's just being triggered by seeing someone else in pain. In the case of the horror movie, the actor may not even be really feeling the emotions he's portraying, he's just making it look like he is; it's why it's called "acting."
Experiments with monkeys that are known to have no "theory of mind" have demonstrated that the animals react negatively to seeing other monkeys in distress. It's doubtful there's any higher-level cognitive process involved, it's just an adaptation that evolved in social animals to make it easier to cooperate and live in groups. And I don't see how it's a "gifted trait" if a bunch of monkeys can do it. |
I understand what you're saying, and of course, I understand that the actors are not feeling the emotion they are portraying...but the character is meant to, and if a film is well made, the audience should have aligned themselves with the character.
You should check out the post I made on the other thread related to empathy that's floating around. I understand that, technically, any emotion you feel belongs to you, because you are the one feeling it. However, there are times when I feel a certain way, with no discernable cause, and only later will I discover that the person I was with was feeling that emotion, even though they weren't outwardly expressing it, and that some event earlier in the day triggered that emotion in them. So, in this situation, I can't claim ownership of what I was feeling, because it was actually the other person's emotion that I was picking up on, without realizing it.
It's kind of similar to another trait of mine, in which someone will say something to me, and moments later, I'll say the same thing, as if it was my own unique idea. The person with me will look at me like I'm crazy, and explain that they had just said the exact same thing. What's happening, of course, is that my mind is processing the information, but I'm not aware of it. In this case, would you say the thought was mine? No, it was the other person's thought, I just didn't realize it at the time. It's like inception! Anyway, I think you could apply that same concept to the feeling of someone else's emotion. Yes, you are feeling the emotion, but you don't really have 'ownership' of it.
_________________
Aspie Quiz: AS - 141/200, NT - 77/200 (Very likely an Aspie)
AQ: 34/50 (Aspie range)
EQ: 32 / SQ: 68 (Extreme Systemizing / AS or HFA)
Diagnosed with AS and Anxiety Disorder - NOS on 03/21/2012 |
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WonderWoman
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Age: 60
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'm still back on the difference between sympathy and empathy. I think the word sympathy is often used when someone lost someone they loved. In that case, if you say you have sympathy, you mean you understand they are sad and they have your support to be that way.
With empathy, though, I think it usually is used to mean if someone feels something that can be fixed or improved. So, you wouldn't laugh at someone who is hungry, you would share your lunch if you had some. Still lines are fuzzy.
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"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
WonderWoman
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WonderWoman
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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From the Internet somewhere:
Sympathy and empathy are separate terms with some very important distinctions. Sympathy and empathy are both acts of feeling, but with sympathy you feel for the person; you’re sorry for them or pity them, but you don’t specifically understand what they’re feeling. Sometimes we’re left with little choice but to feel sympathetic because we really can’t understand the plight or predicament of someone else. It takes imagination, work, or possibly a similar experience to get to empathy.
Empathy can best be described as feeling with the person. Notice the distinction between for and with. To an extent you are placing yourself in that person’s place, have a good sense of what they feel, and understand their feelings to a degree. It may be impossible to be fully empathetic because each individual's reactions, thoughts and feelings to tragedy are going to be unique. Yet the idea of empathy implies a much more active process. Instead of feeling sorry for, you’re sorry with and have clothed yourself in the mantle of someone else’s emotional reactions.
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"Me voici donc seul sur la terre, n'ayant plus de frère de prochain d'ami de société que moi-même." Jean-Jacques Rousseau
"Do not think, 'I am alone.'" Sasaki Roshi
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Matt62
Phoenix
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Age: 51
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I see this in regards to me (diagnosis pending, though I suspect my family knew I was autistic as far back as 1964) in to ways. Yes, emotions are very overloading. I fact, they make my sensory issues take a back seat, when they are strong. Also, I have trouble seperating & recognizing the EXACT one if the other person is emoting strongly. I tend to try & step back from this.
I also have trouble expressing my own emotions. Either I do not do it in time, or I go overboard & over-react.
btw, I really understand empathy in the old sense, which is actually a form of ESP where you can sense another's emotions from afar. An experience I have actually had. ONCE. And I do not EVER want it again. Very painful, it involved a death in my girlfriend's family while I was away at college some distance away.
Sincerely,
Matthew |
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TechnoDog
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Posts: 869
Location: Thornaby, UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| WonderWoman wrote: | I'm still back on the difference between sympathy and empathy. I think the word sympathy is often used when someone lost someone they loved. In that case, if you say you have sympathy, you mean you understand they are sad and they have your support to be that way.
With empathy, though, I think it usually is used to mean if someone feels something that can be fixed or improved. So, you wouldn't laugh at someone who is hungry, you would share your lunch if you had some. Still lines are fuzzy. |
Well on this Big 5 personality test
Empathy:- Tendencies to be especially sensitive to feelings, both ones' & those of others, & in self-improvement.
Sympathy:- Tendencies to be especially sensitive to the misfortune of others & to take an interest in helping them.
Really they is 9 category’s under Agreeableness Traits.
Understanding ( Respect & sympathize with other persons' feelings, interests & viewpoints, helpful.)
Warmth ( Make people feel welcome )
Morality ( Respect for others, modestry, loyalty. )
Pleasantness ( kind, trusting, socially pleasant. )
Empathy
Cooperation ( This one has the avoids making fun of others. )
Sympathy
Tenderness ( Shows feelings, cries in empathy, etc )
Nurturance ( Go out of ones way to help & please others, putting them before self. )
Not stuck all the box info down.
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INTJ, Type5 Observer, Ecologists,
“When you make a mistake, don't look back at it long. Take the reason of the thing into your mind and then look forward. Mistakes are lessons of wisdom. The past cannot be changed. The future is yet in your power.” |
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