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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | I'd rather look at what's actually happening on a case-by-case basis before simply dismissing something as whiny and irrational. |
Well, yeah. But you should also look at what's actually going on before dismissing something as lacking appreciation for justice.
Just because something is phrased in emotional terms doesn't mean it's wrong, but just because something isn't expressed in emotional terms doesn't make it wrong either.
| Quote: | | I think dismissing injustice from a safely detached emotional reference point so as to claim logical superiority is another form of sophistry. I know a lot of people change their opinion very fast when something comes to effect them more personally. |
Both sophistry and inconsistency are on a logical level, rather than an emotional one.
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writer_mom
Butterfly
Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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Is it bad that I routinely look at both sides of the issue and find the logic in their stance and why it was chosen while still citing the negative effects?
example: school playgrounds in my area are locked down so no one can access them from the outside, even when school is out. I can see why they did this. To keep the kids in and safe but also to discourage vandals and teenagers from coming in and breaking the equipment. Negative side would be that all the good kids who want a decent place to play are now being punished for the actions of a few bad individuals. |
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Verdandi wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | Verdandi wrote: | | I too hate black licorice. |
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Look at it this way: That much more for you. |
THANKS NOMMMMMM
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hyperlexian
loves the man who typed too much and ran outta spa
Joined: Jul 22, 2010
Age: 41
Posts: 21969
Location: with bucephalus
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Rascal77s wrote: | | You guys ever wonder why they made the nasty licorice, that nobody likes, black? It stinks of racism to me. |
I LOVE BLACK LICORICE!!!!12!!!!!!
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Verdandi
Miss Kitty Fantastico
Joined: Dec 08, 2010
Posts: 10193
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Verdandi wrote: | | hyperlexian wrote: | | Verdandi wrote: | | I too hate black licorice. |
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Look at it this way: That much more for you. |
THANKS NOMMMMMM |
When I visited San Francisco, I ate at this Korean restaurant that served this spicy chicken dish. It wasn't spicy in American terms, but it was tasty. One interesting thing about it was that one of the spices was anise, but not so much that the taste was overpowering. I actually enjoyed that, even though it was very similar in flavor to black licorice. |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9215
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | I'd rather look at what's actually happening on a case-by-case basis before simply dismissing something as whiny and irrational. |
Well, yeah. But you should also look at what's actually going on before dismissing something as lacking appreciation for justice.
Just because something is phrased in emotional terms doesn't mean it's wrong, but just because something isn't expressed in emotional terms doesn't make it wrong either.
| Quote: | | I think dismissing injustice from a safely detached emotional reference point so as to claim logical superiority is another form of sophistry. I know a lot of people change their opinion very fast when something comes to effect them more personally. |
Both sophistry and inconsistency are on a logical level, rather than an emotional one. |
My point is more that if one is going to criticize someone's viewpoint as illogical one should be able to point out real factual and logical inconsistencies or contradictions. |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| writer_mom wrote: | Is it bad that I routinely look at both sides of the issue and find the logic in their stance and why it was chosen while still citing the negative effects?
example: school playgrounds in my area are locked down so no one can access them from the outside, even when school is out. I can see why they did this. To keep the kids in and safe but also to discourage vandals and teenagers from coming in and breaking the equipment. Negative side would be that all the good kids who want a decent place to play are now being punished for the actions of a few bad individuals. |
You can't have a well-rounded understanding of an issue without doing this. |
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Ganondox
Visceral Diety
Joined: Oct 08, 2011
Age: 16
Posts: 3598
Location: Indonesia
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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My logical reasoning and shear stubbornness make me very good at online debating.
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Ancalagon
Computer Geek
Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 2388
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | My point is more that if one is going to criticize someone's viewpoint as illogical one should be able to point out real factual and logical inconsistencies or contradictions. |
I think we've been talking past each other to some extent, because I totally agree with this.
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 9215
Location: Western Michigan
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | marshall wrote: | | My point is more that if one is going to criticize someone's viewpoint as illogical one should be able to point out real factual and logical inconsistencies or contradictions. |
I think we've been talking past each other to some extent, because I totally agree with this. |
Okay. That's good. I was just trying to clarify. |
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SmOkiNjOe
Emu Egg
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Arguing with Aspies |
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| Dox47 wrote: | | If my wife says I haven't taken the garbage out in a week and I know for a fact it's only been 4 days, I'm immediately angry about the exaggeration because my brain processes it as a lie. Internally, I'm wired for "just the facts", and feel that if you have to exaggerate to fortify your position, than perhaps it was never very strong in the first case. |
How can you make the above statement, although it was about someone using a figure of speech, then contradict your "logical" self by stating this:
| Dox47 wrote: | | The principal holds in other areas as well, argue for redistribution because it's "fair" and any number of people will jump all over you about who defines fair and such, but frame it as using higher personal taxes combined with incentives to invest in businesses to spur job creation and you've gotten off the "fair" wagon and onto the "stimulating the economy" wagon, a much more easily defended position. |
No-one "actually" gotten off or gotten onto any wagon.
I find it quite strange how someone who claims to be so logically thinking, cannot work out, logically, when something is said as literal or as figurative. |
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Rascal77s
Picnic Basket Thief
Joined: Nov 13, 2011
Posts: 2337
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| hyperlexian wrote: | | Rascal77s wrote: | | You guys ever wonder why they made the nasty licorice, that nobody likes, black? It stinks of racism to me. |
I LOVE BLACK LICORICE!!!!12!!!!!! |
OK I admit I like it too, but most people don't  |
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edgewaters
hibernating
Joined: Aug 17, 2006
Age: 40
Posts: 2426
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Arguing with Aspies |
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| SmOkiNjOe wrote: | No-one "actually" gotten off or gotten onto any wagon.
I find it quite strange how someone who claims to be so logically thinking, cannot work out, logically, when something is said as literal or as figurative. |
Getting on or off a wagon is an analogy. It is a method of communicating an idea. You are attacking an idea as being illogical by rejecting the way in which it was communicated (ie rejecting analogy as a method of communication) and then claiming the idea was invalid because of a communication method you don't like. This is irrational - the idea's validity doesn't depend on what communication style is used to present it. |
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5189
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ancalagon wrote: | | Absolutely. Logic can get you from a premise to a conclusion, but logic can't give you a premise. |
Sorry for the jump back, I'm fitting posting into my work/wife schedule and my timing is all off.
I just wanted to address this one real quick because I feel that people often misunderstand or misconstrue me on this point because I tend to condemn largely moral judgments or arguments. I don't argue that you can get by on logic alone, but when "testing" a premise or idea it's logic that should be your primary tool because it's less subjective than other measures. I understand how someone just seeing me taking apart someone else's position without ever putting one forward myself might get the impression that I oppose all moral and emotional reasoning, but my true position is closer to thinking they should be used less often and logic more so. It's a hierarchy, not absolutism.
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Dox47
Consigliere
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 5189
Location: Seattle Area
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| marshall wrote: | | On a separate note, I feel the word "redistribution" is a somewhat loaded/biased term. It gives the impression that the goal of progressive taxation is simply to take from one group to give to the other, as a simple blunt leveling device. That is not at all what progressive social programs are for. The intent is to extend opportunities to broader section of the population such that people born into the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum are not at as great of a disadvantage as they would otherwise be due to external factors. It is about creating a level playing field, not equal outcomes. People can criticize the actual efficacy of such programs but that's a whole other can of worms. |
I gotta use this for an example of something real quick Marshall, it's not intended as a rebuttal of anything you're saying.
Marshall just picked up on a very subtle piece of spin in there, one that I didn't really intentionally put in but one that reflects my own bias on the issue of progressive taxation; intellectually I largely accept Marshall's more nuanced definition, but emotionally I just don't like it and my word choice reflects that. What lies beyond my reflexive dislike of any program that takes from the individual for the common good is a deep seated suspicion of who then controls those programs and their motives/incentives, bureaucracy creep, slippery slopes and all the other good stuff that puts me in the libertarian camp; but that's another thread.
To bring it back to loaded words, my own near allergy to the more obvious one probably comes from my longtime involvement in gun politics, where hunting rifles become "assault weapons", regular magazines become "high capacity magazines", and virtually any type of jacketed bullets become "cop killer bullets". My current favorites from that camp are renaming bolt action hunting rifles "medium caliber sniper rifles" and calling a bill that would treat carry licenses like drivers licenses the "George Zimmerman Armed Vigilante Act". Maybe it's just what side of that debate I'm on, but to me at least nothing smells of desperation quite like language that tortured.
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Unconditional allegiance is the surest way to render one’s beliefs and agenda irrelevant
Any power that government has to do something you like will invariably be used for something you abhor
Murum aries attigit |
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