gaffa91
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 39
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 Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: Is aspergers existence proven scientifically? |
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Like brain scan, EEG or whatsoever. Why this information is not public? Otherwise there is absolutely no sense diagnosing aspergers if there is no 100% prove about it.
Even so, why it is diagnosed if the diagnosis doesn't help directly? I mean people can have bad social skills WITHOUT having aspergers, so it cannot be a syndrome for a "bad social skills". And also people CAN be interested about introverted things WITHOUT having aspergers.
And why bad math skills are not diagnosed but bad social skills are? (special interest are cause of bad social skills after all).
Why people always god damn believe without a doubt on authorities like doctors, polices etc. |
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twich
Toucan
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Age: 28
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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....You know it's much, much more than issues with social interaction, right? If that were the sole reason of getting a diagnosis, I'd wonder, too. Asperger's is just autism, but when people who aren't educated think autism, they think of the most severe cases out there ONLY... Like they do with everything. It's a spectrum disorder, meaning it ranges from moderate to severe, but there's so much more than social problems.
Being diagnosed can open the door to A LOT of support and help (not to mention understanding,) so I'm not sure why you say it's of no help to people who get a diagnosis. It most certainly can be.
EDIT: I'm not sure where you get the concept that special interests are because of bad social skills, but I'd beg to differ. If anything I'd say it's the other way around, but I don't even believe that.
Maybe people are ok with believing doctors sometimes because it actually sounds like what they're dealing with? I don't agree doctors are right 100% of the time, but why shouldn't you listen if you have sought their help, and what they suggest seems to fit more than it doesn't?
Last edited by twich on Fri May 11, 2012 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gaffa91
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| twich wrote: | ....You know it's much, much more than issues with social interaction, right? If that were the sole reason of getting a diagnosis, I'd wonder, too. Asperger's is just autism, but when people who aren't educated think autism, they think of the most severe cases out there ONLY... Like they do with everything. It's a spectrum disorder, meaning it ranges from moderate to severe, but there's so much more than social problems.
Being diagnosed can open the door to A LOT of support and help (not to mention understanding,) so I'm not sure why you say it's of no help to people who get a diagnosis. It most certainly can be. |
You didn't really answer a question: is there even such a thing as asperger's, or is it just a diagnosis based on certain traits, not a brain difference? |
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twich
Toucan
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Age: 28
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| gaffa91 wrote: | | twich wrote: | ....You know it's much, much more than issues with social interaction, right? If that were the sole reason of getting a diagnosis, I'd wonder, too. Asperger's is just autism, but when people who aren't educated think autism, they think of the most severe cases out there ONLY... Like they do with everything. It's a spectrum disorder, meaning it ranges from moderate to severe, but there's so much more than social problems.
Being diagnosed can open the door to A LOT of support and help (not to mention understanding,) so I'm not sure why you say it's of no help to people who get a diagnosis. It most certainly can be. |
You didn't really answer a question: is there even such a thing as asperger's, or is it just a diagnosis based on certain traits, not a brain difference? |
Ok then.
They're in the middle of trying to figure out how to show them, and yes, they are in the starting stages of trying to figure out how to have solid proof such as a brain scan. That's not being hidden from the public, I've even seen posts about it on here. To dismiss something because there's not a test yet is silly, they've done so with things like diabetes, MS, and chronic myofascial pain disorder all very real and very debilitating problems that were once known as syndrome's (MS was at one point called the fakers disease because they didn't believe it existed) You've not answered any of the questions I'd asked, either. I'd think since it's an official diagnosis, then it exists, but that doesn't seem to be enough for you. Keep in mind, these "solid" and "concrete" tests have been known to give false negatives and positives before with other things, so nothing is foolproof. |
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gaffa91
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| twich wrote: |
Maybe people are ok with believing doctors sometimes because it actually sounds like what they're dealing with? I don't agree doctors are right 100% of the time, but why shouldn't you listen if you have sought their help, and what they suggest seems to fit more than it doesn't? |
Let's say I really don't god damn know does aspergers exist in scientific matter, I just want data how aspergers brain differ from non-aspergians. If there is no such data, then the diagnosis does not base on facts. |
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twich
Toucan
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Age: 28
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure why you're so hostile, I'm just trying to get a better understanding as to why you're asking the questions, and I'm trying to answer them for you. I'm done now because you've been nothing but rude. Have a nice day. |
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twich
Toucan
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
Age: 28
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| gaffa91 wrote: | | twich wrote: |
Maybe people are ok with believing doctors sometimes because it actually sounds like what they're dealing with? I don't agree doctors are right 100% of the time, but why shouldn't you listen if you have sought their help, and what they suggest seems to fit more than it doesn't? |
Let's say I really don't god damn know does aspergers exist in scientific matter, I just want data how aspergers brain differ from non-aspergians. If there is no such data, then the diagnosis does not base on facts. |
For the record, everything starts off as observations and has no tests or data until they discover it, which can take centuries- Autism and Asperger's was only starting to be documented in what, the 1940's? Give it some time. NOW I'm done. |
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gaffa91
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| twich wrote: | Ok then.
They're in the middle of trying to figure out how to show them, and yes, they are in the starting stages of trying to figure out how to have solid proof such as a brain scan. That's not being hidden from the public, I've even seen posts about it on here. To dismiss something because there's not a test yet is silly, they've done so with things like diabetes, MS, and chronic myofascial pain disorder all very real and very debilitating problems that were once known as syndrome's (MS was at one point called the fakers disease because they didn't believe it existed) You've not answered any of the questions I'd asked, either. I'd think since it's an official diagnosis, then it exists, but that doesn't seem to be enough for you. Keep in mind, these "solid" and "concrete" tests have been known to give false negatives and positives before with other things, so nothing is foolproof. |
Even if you don't read this topic anymore, i'd like to answer this.
If diabetes, MS and so on are real things and tested, this DOESN'T MEAN asperger's is. It can be a "fake disease", we can't know until we see results. So diagnosing aspergers without solid facts is idiotic.
EDIT: And calm down, for god's sake. There is nothing personal. |
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ToughDiamond
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2008
Age: 60
Posts: 4751
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Given that nobody seems yet able to prove AS using brain scans, is there any good statistical evidence for the existence of AS? It seems to be that, if AS is real, then the traits would "cluster" in individuals. Should be a walk in the park for a good scientist. I can't believe it's not been tried. |
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Tuttle
Not a bird, a turtle.
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Age: 24
Posts: 2588
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Is aspergers existence proven scientifically? |
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| gaffa91 wrote: |
And why bad math skills are not diagnosed but bad social skills are? (special interest are cause of bad social skills after all). |
ICD-9 code 315.1 |
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Ellingtonia
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
Age: 21
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Asperger's syndrome, as defined by any diagnostic criteria, is really a collection of behavioural symptoms. There are undeniably many people who have these symptoms, and so Aspergers undeniably exists.
Most theories about the cause of these symtpoms involve a physical difference in the brain, and while there is a lot of interesting research being done there is as yet no physical test for this unspecified brain difference. But Aspergers is not the brain difference, Aspergers is the set of behaviours, which is caused by the brain difference.
An analogy I find helpful: when you go to a doctor because you think you have a cold, they usually don't take a blood sample and get out their microscope to look for the cold virus, this is unnecessary. Instead they might check your sinuses, your throat, check your breathing with a stethoscope etc. They are not looking for the cause, they are looking for the symptoms. When we talk about the disease 'the cold', we are not actually talking about the cold virus, we are talking about the effects it has on the body. The disease is the condition of the body which is caused by the virus.
The cold was known, diagnosed and treated (in a fashion) well before the discovery of the specific cause, and similarly Aspergers is. Would it be better if we could find a specific brain difference which causes Aspergers? Of course, and many researchers are pursuing that goal, but in the meantime there are many people undeniably expressing the symptoms that can be identified and helped. |
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Delphiki
Launchie
Joined: Apr 15, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 1350
Location: My own version of reality
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| ToughDiamond wrote: | | Given that nobody seems yet able to prove AS using brain scans, is there any good statistical evidence for the existence of AS? It seems to be that, if AS is real, then the traits would "cluster" in individuals. Should be a walk in the park for a good scientist. I can't believe it's not been tried. |
A walk in the park? how would you know?
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20020214/autistic-brain-structure-is-different
major flaw with the study I linked is small sample size
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Trolls exist! They steal your socks, but only the left ones. I wonder what is up with that? |
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
Joined: Jan 07, 2011
Age: 23
Posts: 14798
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Is aspergers existence proven scientifically? |
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| gaffa91 wrote: | Like brain scan, EEG or whatsoever. Why this information is not public? Otherwise there is absolutely no sense diagnosing aspergers if there is no 100% prove about it.
Even so, why it is diagnosed if the diagnosis doesn't help directly? I mean people can have bad social skills WITHOUT having aspergers, so it cannot be a syndrome for a "bad social skills". And also people CAN be interested about introverted things WITHOUT having aspergers.
And why bad math skills are not diagnosed but bad social skills are? (special interest are cause of bad social skills after all).
Why people always god damn believe without a doubt on authorities like doctors, polices etc. |
Uhh you do realize most mental disorders are not obvious on brain scans, EEGs or any of that right? For one every brain is different and for two they have not narrowed it down to one thing for any disorder which to me point to the possibility of maybe even different causes for the same symptoms.
Basically aspergers is just autism, its going to be merged with it term wise anyways in the new DSM.
And yes one could have bad social skills without autism/aspergers.....but the disorder is a lot more than 'bad social skills'. Also what are introverted things exactly?
As for math if someone has a learning disability that makes math harder for them that could be diagnosed.....though I am not sure who the hell told you bad social skills cause special interests, maybe you should do a better job at checking your sources. Also how does acknowledging a mental disorder I have and struggle with indicate I believe whatever doctors or the government says?
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Sweetleaf
Metalhead
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Age: 23
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Location: Somewhere in Colorado
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| gaffa91 wrote: |
You didn't really answer a question: is there even such a thing as asperger's, or is it just a diagnosis based on certain traits, not a brain difference? |
Like most other mental disorders it is based on symptoms the individual has......typically mental disorders in general are not diagnosed by them running a brain scan and finding specific physical things that point to that mental disorder.
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It's like alice in wonderland except, my names not alice and this is the real world not a dream. |
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gaffa91
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Ellingtonia wrote: | | Asperger's syndrome, as defined by any diagnostic criteria, is really a collection of behavioural symptoms. There are undeniably many people who have these symptoms, and so Aspergers undeniably exists. |
So it's like "you act like this way, so we decide you are not normal and we give you this kind of syndrome". BUT any diagnosis should be based on scientific facts, not just the way they seem to act.
And there is probably financial interest about labeling people sick as well. The more diseases and syndromes etc. we get, there is more medicine about to cure or treat it. So more "sick" people -> more money. Do you really think that medicine business is based only on real proven diseases etc. , not financial interests? Because there really are people who are taking mecidine to treat their traits. |
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