Dots
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 23, 2010
Age: 29
Posts: 938
Location: Ontario
|
 Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: How much "Theory of Mind" can an autistic person l |
 |
|
It's possible to learn Theory of Mind, right? For example, as a kid I was definitely impaired in theory of mind. I had no concept that people thought differently than me, was confused when others didn't share my opinion, etc.
Now that I'm an adult, my default setting is still like that, I still assume that everyone shares my opinion. I still assume that everyone knows what I know. For example, every time I get an idea, I don't share it because in my mind, they must have already thought about it. It doesn't compute that maybe they don't know what I know. But if I get alone and think about it, sometimes I can get an inkling of what it might feel like to not be so mind blind.
Is it possible to learn theory of mind? And how would one go about teaching oneself? Is lack of theory of mind really a huge problem?
_________________
Transgender. Call me 'he' please. I'm a guy.
Diagnosed Bipolar and Aspergers.
Free speech means the right to shout 'theatre' in a crowded fire.
--Abbie Hoffman |
|
| Back to top |
|
young_god
Blue Jay
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
Posts: 85
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is totally possible.
Not only that, you might have a slight advantage!
Your understanding of a lack of theory of mind is the first step into a great understanding of the theory of mind.
Machines that can understand themselves start off slow at first, but very quickly build up speed. Give it a try. You might be surprised about how far you get in a short space of time. Or at least, a reasonable amount of time.
The human brain is too unique and too individual to ever get the attention it needs from relevant 'sources' or 'authorities'. You are your own guide.
From the way you ask the question, I think you would do very well. Yes you can learn Theory of Mind.
To answer your last question:
Yes, a lack of theory of mind is a HUGE problem.
It can get you beaten up, ripped off, or just taken advantage of generally.
It is not a case of being indifferent. People will see this missing part of you and act accordingly - take advantage.
It is not for you to gain any advantage, it is to stop you being at a disadvantage.
You might not like or understand how other people think. But you will have the consciousness to understand it. You are not that blinded by your 'disorder'.
Then act accordingly.
Believe me, I am pretty NT compared to a lot of others on this site, but that is a problem too. I have probably had the s*** kicked out of me, for not understanding
Theory of Mind, more than I would like.
Do your best, do what you can. It will benefit you in real life situations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
League_Girl
Proud mamma
Joined: Feb 05, 2010
Posts: 13675
Location: My house
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes it's possible to learn it. I never expect anyone to be psychic. How can people know what I know if I don't tell them? Do I know what people know if they never tell me? Do I know what they are thinking if they don't share it with me? I also know everyone thinks different. I still get my moments though and my husband has to remind me that someone isn't me or that they don't think like me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Robdemanc
Phoenix
Joined: May 31, 2010
Posts: 2321
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| How do other people know if you lack theory of mind? And then what allows them to take advantage? Or beat you up? |
|
| Back to top |
|
young_god
Blue Jay
Joined: Jun 24, 2010
Posts: 85
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Robdemanc wrote: | | How do other people know if you lack theory of mind? And then what allows them to take advantage? Or beat you up? |
Good question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
sacrip
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 18, 2008
Age: 39
Posts: 673
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You don't 'learn' Theory of Mind, you remember it.
"So, what do YOU think?" should become a standard in your verbal repertoire. As long as you know that Theory of Mind is a thing and that it doesn't come naturally to you, that's most of the work right there. It might be enough to write T.O.M on your hand, to remind you that you can't assume what's in other people's heads. Eventually, it'll be habit.
_________________
Everything would be better if you were in charge. |
|
| Back to top |
|
dunya
Snowy Owl
Joined: Dec 25, 2010
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When I am talking with someone I trust, I give my opinion and I usually say to them
"how do you see that?"
or
"do you think I have understood the situation the way you would?"
to learn how they see the situation, or something I might have missed.
I listen to what they think another person's feelings or motivations might have been 'cause I don't always notice that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
thedaywalker
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2008
Age: 20
Posts: 716
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| i feel like i've gained a lot of theory of mind lately the important thing with learning theory of mind is that you totaly asimilate everything you learn so that you not only know it intelectualy but also feel it and know it with your body |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dots
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 23, 2010
Age: 29
Posts: 938
Location: Ontario
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thedaywalker wrote: | | i feel like i've gained a lot of theory of mind lately the important thing with learning theory of mind is that you totaly asimilate everything you learn so that you not only know it intelectualy but also feel it and know it with your body |
How do you do that, though? I've made some gains in the area of Theory of Mind since I was a kid, but it still doesn't come by feel/instinct. I guess that's another way of rephrasing my initial question. Is it possible for an autistic person to learn Theory of Mind to such a level that it becomes instinctual? Would that make them on par with NTs?
_________________
Transgender. Call me 'he' please. I'm a guy.
Diagnosed Bipolar and Aspergers.
Free speech means the right to shout 'theatre' in a crowded fire.
--Abbie Hoffman |
|
| Back to top |
|
Atomsk
Bass Fiend
Joined: Apr 10, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 1539
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: How much "Theory of Mind" can an autistic pers |
|
|
| Dots wrote: | | Now that I'm an adult, my default setting is still like that, I still assume that everyone shares my opinion. I still assume that everyone knows what I know. For example, every time I get an idea, I don't share it because in my mind, they must have already thought about it. It doesn't compute that maybe they don't know what I know. |
I have exactly this same thing happen to me. A specific example, is that I often assume people know musical things, such as chord progressions, as easily as I do - I have absolute pitch, so I know which notes and chords I am hearing without any external reference - I simply hear a song and know all the notes, can replicate it afterwards on whatever instrument.
It also happens with foreign languages - whenever I speak German or Spanish or Russian in front of someone who doesn't know it or does not speak it very well, I always think "oh they'll be able to figure out what I'm saying, it's so obvious", even though they usually don't have a clue what I said. It's perfectly logical that they shouldn't, but it's hard for me to imagine it not being obvious to them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Jtuk
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
Posts: 732
Location: Wales, UK
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dots wrote: | | thedaywalker wrote: | | i feel like i've gained a lot of theory of mind lately the important thing with learning theory of mind is that you totaly asimilate everything you learn so that you not only know it intelectualy but also feel it and know it with your body |
How do you do that, though? I've made some gains in the area of Theory of Mind since I was a kid, but it still doesn't come by feel/instinct. I guess that's another way of rephrasing my initial question. Is it possible for an autistic person to learn Theory of Mind to such a level that it becomes instinctual? Would that make them on par with NTs? |
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but all the reports and biographies I've read, indicate that that no matter what the improvement, it's never as good and as instinctive as an NT. There is always that thinking time, on the plus side, I feel that sometimes I'm actually better at this than an NT, but it's not as fast. I do tend to notice and remember the details of what someone says, I'm quite good at applying theory of mind in retrospect and working out what someone is up to. So I'm quite good at interviewing people or catching people out at lies.
This isn't so good for fleeting encounters or real-time interpretation though.
Jason |
|
| Back to top |
|
RobotGreenAlien2
Toucan
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| You can learn to do in intellectually where NT's do it intuitively. Kind of like a game doing graphics in Software as opposed to Hardware. It isn't as good and there is a delay but you can do it. Start reading psychology books (real ones not self self ones). |
|
| Back to top |
|
ciano
Butterfly
Joined: May 01, 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 12
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You don't distinguish between fact and opinion, but you think you do. You believe that your mind and its growth are set on a track, and that the entire world is on the same track, with varying people of varying ages being further behind or ahead. You don't understand that everyone has a different track; perhaps you can't even conceive it. In short, you believe that the way you see things is the way everyone sees things: the way things are.
You deserve to know that there is no one way things are. There is no such thing as right. You may wonder, then, what is there? People. And every person has a mind and convictions equal to yours. All people are holy. Respect them and learn from them.
-From a letter I once wrote to my past self. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Dan_Undiagnosed
Toucan
Joined: Jun 19, 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I know that other people have thoughts and feelings independent of mine but if I'm not careful or if I'm lazy I can end up doing this thing where I'll be thinking about something for ten minutes then start to talk about it with someone without properly introducing the subject first. I'll be thirty seconds into a rant and the other person will stop me and say 'What are you talking about?' Then I remember they hadn't been thinking what I'd been thinking for ten minutes and I have to introduce the subject first because it's like they've just walked in halfway through a conversation 
That makes me think this can be improved or worsened with effort or lack thereof. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Mdyar
emuegg
Joined: May 29, 2009
Posts: 2514
|
| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: How much "Theory of Mind" can an autistic pers |
|
|
| Dots wrote: | It's possible to learn Theory of Mind, right? For example, as a kid I was definitely impaired in theory of mind. I had no concept that people thought differently than me, was confused when others didn't share my opinion, etc.
Now that I'm an adult, my default setting is still like that, I still assume that everyone shares my opinion. I still assume that everyone knows what I know. For example, every time I get an idea, I don't share it because in my mind, they must have already thought about it. It doesn't compute that maybe they don't know what I know. But if I get alone and think about it, sometimes I can get an inkling of what it might feel like to not be so mind blind.
Is it possible to learn theory of mind? And how would one go about teaching oneself? Is lack of theory of mind really a huge problem? |
| Quote: | | It is worth noting, however, that since it is a spectrum disorder, a few with Asperger's are nearly normal in their ability to read facial expressions and intentions of others. |
From: http://www.anxietyzone.com/conditions/aspergers_syndrome.html
Note the word "normal." This isn't a practiced effect to achieve normal, as in making it a special interest to do so. There is a Dxed female here that posted up she does body language and predicts at least some( many? all?) intentions naturally.
Maybe: Socially Anxious Social Communicator
(SASC)?
From:
http://www.socialthinking.com/images/stories/pdf_files/ST-SCP-Ver-11.11.pdf
It looks as though improvements can be made in each category, but there is a neurological ceiling in each.
I don't know a universal way to learn it, but I've artificially learned it. I really didnt care to know it -- it didn't interest me to want to know it. There is a fundamental instinct that is missing in some strange way.
I've found that I was socially stupid for a long time -- a strong incentive to learn it.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
