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Vigilans
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
are not going to get a hold of an h-bomb any time soon.

ruveyn


But they do have nuclear wepons well at least Faux news thinks they do.


Possibly. Or low yield dirty bombs which can render a portion of a city unihabitable for 10 or 20 years. Look at Chernobyl. Nothing went critical their, but the place is unlivable for humans. Abdul, Ibrihim, Faisil, Achmed, Faraq and Mustapha very likely have the makings for dirty radiological bombs.

ruveyn


There are actually a fair amount of squatters living in the Chernobyl area, and in Pripyat. I have also read that the wildlife in the area, due to little human activity, is flourishing, at least in comparison to the pre-accident environment
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teh radiation isnt that bad either, there are plenty of lethal hotspots however but in most areas the radiation is within 2-5 times background.
in the inner city around the reactor it is upwards of 10 times, the true problem isnt in those amounts but the fact tht in many buildings the ligthly radiactive dust has settled and created lethal and very confined hotspots that means a geiger counter is a must, out in the rural areas that aint a problem.

the reactor is still running as far as i know, only one of the 3 reactor chambers were seriosuly affected and the other two never experienced anything but a controlled shutdown,
in itself a bit of a testament to the engineering of the place(not the reactor design, that had a couple of flaws,), had human stupidity not created the perfect circumstances for the aforementioned flaws to come into effect.

i contemplated going there for the experience a 3 day field trip is around 500 dollars.
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AstroGeek
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oodain wrote:
the reactor is still running as far as i know, only one of the 3 reactor chambers were seriosuly affected and the other two never experienced anything but a controlled shutdown,
in itself a bit of a testament to the engineering of the place(not the reactor design, that had a couple of flaws,), had human stupidity not created the perfect circumstances for the aforementioned flaws to come into effect.

The Soviet Union was just full of contradictions wasn't it?
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 22, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vigilans wrote:
[

There are actually a fair amount of squatters living in the Chernobyl area, and in Pripyat. I have also read that the wildlife in the area, due to little human activity, is flourishing, at least in comparison to the pre-accident environment


If the squatters don't mind cancer shortening their lives by 10 or 20 years I suppose that is o.k.

ruveyn
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstroGeek wrote:
Oodain wrote:
the reactor is still running as far as i know, only one of the 3 reactor chambers were seriosuly affected and the other two never experienced anything but a controlled shutdown,
in itself a bit of a testament to the engineering of the place(not the reactor design, that had a couple of flaws,), had human stupidity not created the perfect circumstances for the aforementioned flaws to come into effect.

The Soviet Union was just full of contradictions wasn't it?


it truly was. Laughing

especially considering somethign as "simple" as a control rod redesign and replacement was enough to ensure decades of safe operation on the 2 remaining reactors.

with all that time and energy invested one would think they would account for the human variable, for its time it was a gigantic investment.

@ruveyn, take a look at the latest revised incident report, that report was the first to find actual engineering flaws in the design and ti also puts forth some quite odd numbers, apearantly it chimes well with the partial immunity theory of radiation, meaning that the cummulutive effects of radiation exposure that we usually think of as linear actually dont match up, some people live in areas of a literal 10 times background for 80 years as well without much discernible side effect.(some specific villages where there is a very high thorium content in the soil)

in essence the theory would mean that low continous radiation doesnt accumulate to the same degree as acute exposure, something statistics from multiple sources on patients treated with different form of radiotherapy and several surveys of long distance high altitude flying actually seems to agree with.
that said i didnt read the actual data but an article on the theory in a popsci magazine, its an interesting hypothesis.
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the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
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DC
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Joined: Aug 16, 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
Vigilans wrote:


There are actually a fair amount of squatters living in the Chernobyl area, and in Pripyat. I have also read that the wildlife in the area, due to little human activity, is flourishing, at least in comparison to the pre-accident environment


If the squatters don't mind cancer shortening their lives by 10 or 20 years I suppose that is o.k.

ruveyn


Abundant wildlife present in 'the zone' would suggest otherwise.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_chernobyl/all/1
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DC wrote:


Abundant wildlife present in 'the zone' would suggest otherwise.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_chernobyl/all/1


Has anyone done cancer scans on the wildlife in the area?

Would you live there?

ruveyn
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DC
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
DC wrote:


Abundant wildlife present in 'the zone' would suggest otherwise.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff_chernobyl/all/1


Has anyone done cancer scans on the wildlife in the area?

Would you live there?

ruveyn


Not scans, dissections. Even better.

Would I live there, yes I would with more concerns about not speaking the language and not having internet access that concern that my pee was going to glow in the dark.
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ruveyn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DC wrote:


Not scans, dissections. Even better.

Would I live there, yes I would with more concerns about not speaking the language and not having internet access that concern that my pee was going to glow in the dark.


There are "hot spots" in the area where it is not good to be.

ruveyn
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DC
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ruveyn wrote:
DC wrote:


Not scans, dissections. Even better.

Would I live there, yes I would with more concerns about not speaking the language and not having internet access that concern that my pee was going to glow in the dark.


There are "hot spots" in the area where it is not good to be.

ruveyn


True, but if you ask greenpeace they will tell you that thousands of square miles are unfit for human habitation for the rest of time and the chernobyl accident will cause the deaths of millions people. (not exaggerating, that is their official stance)

In reality, the red forest area and a few small hot spots where lots of metal objects were dumped during the clean up are bad places to hang out in and less than a hundred have died because of the meltdown.

Reality and rhetoric are very, very far apart when it comes to nuclear accidents.
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Oodain
big chief wulla bamboom alakaway
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Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Green Energy Naysayers Reply with quote

AspieRogue wrote:
Oodain wrote:




the speed break on modern turbines are aerodynamic and not by friction, what can fail?
if powert is cut they automatically become aerodynamically inert using hydraulic accumulators.

so please show me some of these new generation turbines where it happened.



Aerodynamic breaks are not foolproof. Then can and do fail in sustained, hurricane force winds. That's where there are mechanical breaks to serve as back-up. The bottom line is that wind power is very expensive and costs more to produce than the revenue it generates and has driven the cost of electricity to consumers. The reason for this is that wind turbines require extensive, regular maintenance to a much greater degree than say, geothermal and even more than nuclear. This is means jobs and decent wages for those who work on wind turbines, but higher taxes and electric bills for the rest of us.



regular maintenance means once after 6 months to check up and then once every year afterwards, ohh the amount of maintenace that is, especially since it usually only takes 6 hours to do an entire turbine.

i pay around 10% more for my electricity and all of it is wind generated(in reality its offset),
why would it raise taxes? i agree subsidies are a bad idea for any company, thing is in loads of countries they arent subsidized any more yet they still continue to generate revenue for the people that own them, they arent payed only for the amount of power but also for the fact they can be used to regulate the energynet in a volume solar cannot and in a way traditional coal fired powerplants cant because of the resolution required.

and yes you are right they can fail, but lets behonest here, if the turbine was prepared for the hurricane then you wouldnt use the emergency brakes at all but the locking pins, they consist of 2 solid steel rods some 25-30 cm in diameter that lock into holes in the rotating backplate(before the gearbox essentially)

if it wasnt prepared for the storm you would have to let the turbines own computer engage the emergency brakes (it isnt used as a brake during normal operation) that would create friction if the wings were moving.
preparing your turbine for a storm consists of logging on to the web interface or send it an sms with the command, no manual work required.

again if modern turbines fail please show me how many compared to the vast amount still standing and when they were put up. it aint impossible but it is darned improbable and not taking these things into account skews the result.

(electricity prices in fredericia denmark,
i pay 207,25 oere for pure wind offset power pr kW/h
average price 196 oere
lowest 191 oere)
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
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ruveyn
Phoenix
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Joined: Sep 22, 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vigilans wrote:


There are actually a fair amount of squatters living in the Chernobyl area, and in Pripyat. I have also read that the wildlife in the area, due to little human activity, is flourishing, at least in comparison to the pre-accident environment


How many years did it take for the place to "cool off".

The initial casualty was a large number of cases of cancer.

ruveyn
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AstroGeek
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DC wrote:
True, but if you ask greenpeace they will tell you that thousands of square miles are unfit for human habitation for the rest of time and the chernobyl accident will cause the deaths of millions people. (not exaggerating, that is their official stance)

In reality, the red forest area and a few small hot spots where lots of metal objects were dumped during the clean up are bad places to hang out in and less than a hundred have died because of the meltdown.

Reality and rhetoric are very, very far apart when it comes to nuclear accidents.

Although I I'm sure that Greenpeace does exaggerate (I'm not terribly fond of them), to be fair I don't think we'll ever know exactly how many died as a result of Chernobyl. It happened in the USSR after all, and their government was never terribly happy to admit its mistakes. And I'm not sure if Russia would be adequately able to track cancer rates among the Chernobyl refugees to get a good estimate of extra deaths that way. I highly doubt that there will be millions of deaths (that strikes me as at least 3 orders of magnitudes too high), but I don't know if we can say for sure that it as only hundreds.
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DC
Phoenix
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AstroGeek wrote:
It happened in the USSR after all, and their government was never terribly happy to admit its mistakes. And I'm not sure if Russia would be adequately able to track cancer rates among the Chernobyl refugees to get a good estimate of extra deaths that way.


I find it quite interesting how often 'Russia lies' is trotted out by Americans in any debate where an event or achievement that has anything do with Russia comes up.

Russia isn't responsible for the figures, immediately after Chernobyl occurred the outrage from the international community meant that there have been huge numbers of international monitors producing the figures and after 25 years of being on the ground in the Ukraine (not Russia), these international monitors can still only attribute 64 deaths to the Chernobyl disaster.

By the way, UN international monitors spent a decade in Iraq and were very insistent that they had no WMD's, America lies.

Perhaps the moral of this tale is to place more trust in UN run organisations that are made up of people from many different nations...
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