Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | DC wrote: | | ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | simon_says wrote: | | There can be no satisfactory answer. Wiping out whole families in a tsunami or letting children starve to death after a famine is just going to have to go in the mysterious ways file. As with many of these questions. |
According to the Bible, God has a reason for everything that happens. |
So when an 18 month old baby gets f**** to death by a paedophile, god decided it should happen?
Sorry about the harsh scenario, but this sort of thing does happen under the watch of an omnipotent creator apparently... |
The Bible also mentions satanic influence on man as well. |
Satan serves the will of the omnipotent creator in any case so even blaming him for human actions amounts to admitting God plays a large part in evil's existence
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DC wrote: | | ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: |
In the book of Job God makes a deal with Satan and lets Satan harm Job to test Job's faith. Perhaps this is the reason God lets Satan cause harm? |
So if god is truly omnipotent, why did he make the deal other than because he is a sadist and he wanted us to suffer?
And if god is not omnipotent, he isn't god... |
It seems that way, but he wants to be sure his followers have faith in him. If they believe, they are rewarded by him, like Job. So it could be explained that God lets bad things happen to test and strengthen the faith of his followers. He allows Satan to mess with his followers in order to test their faith, then he rewards them for continuing to believe in God's goodness. |
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
Joined: Jun 20, 2008
Age: 24
Posts: 12092
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | If they believe, they are rewarded by him, like Job. |
"When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why God? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, "There's just something about you that pisses me off". "
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | If they believe, they are rewarded by him, like Job. |
"When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why God? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, "There's just something about you that pisses me off". " |
I know how he feels  |
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John_Browning
ON A LIST SOMEWHERE
Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 4456
Location: The shooting range
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud |
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simon_says
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 2443
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| John_Browning wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone. |
Yes, that explains tsunamis and earthquakes and epidemics and the lingering deaths they cause. Sex and liberalism and pride. |
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Frieslander
sin free lard
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Joined: Jan 08, 2011
Age: 42
Posts: 2735
Location: Michigan, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| John_Browning wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone. |
Hmmm... so morals are relative? Some people say that abortion should be OK since it is not mentioned in the Bible.
I think you've got it wrong. I'm against abortion in most cases (or almost all), by the way, and I don't think we should allow God to allow bad things in the past just as many would not allow modern abortion. |
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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Rasta is about freedom and the living God
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Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 7998
Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| simon_says wrote: | | John_Browning wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone. |
Yes, that explains tsunamis and earthquakes and epidemics and the lingering deaths they cause. Sex and liberalism and pride. |
Actually, sex, liberalism and pride is what caused Judaism and Islam. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12766
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | simon_says wrote: | | John_Browning wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone. |
Yes, that explains tsunamis and earthquakes and epidemics and the lingering deaths they cause. Sex and liberalism and pride. |
Actually, sex, liberalism and pride is what caused Judaism and Islam. |
I knew it!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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DonQuoteme
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Jun 18, 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Clearly if God was, as the Bible claims, all-powerful, all-knowing etc the presence of evil in the world and the suffering it causes makes no sense. This alone shows that God, if he exists, cannot be the all-powerful, all-knowing entity the Bible claims he is. The only reason I didn't reject Christianity completely and become an atheist is that there is indeed evidence of a god-like force of nature. It's called evolution. And the reason humans believe in God is because we each have a version of this god within us. All creatures are connected to the ecosystem, to nature through their DNA. We innately feel this presence because our subconscious is in contact with it.
But our ancestors had no understanding of evolution, nature and physics so they invented a person, God, to explain it all. I used to go along with Christianity but my logical mind eventually dismantled it when faced with the inconsistencies and contradictions of scripture. The whole concept of faith goes against common sense. To believe in something for which there is no evidence is a sign of madness. That sort of thinking is akin to superstition. Society cannot progress very far when it thinks like that. That sort of faith-thinking leads to evil and suffering, so it is unlikely that a loving God would have asked us to think like that.
The answer to the question posed by the thread is not simple. First, you need to define what you mean by God. If you're referring to our creator (evolution), then why wouldn't evil exist? It's the inevitable consequence of making immoral choices. But if you're referring to a God-person creator, then He would have had to have made a big mistake to include evil if he had any choice in the matter. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12766
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| DonQuoteme wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Clearly if God was, as the Bible claims, all-powerful, all-knowing etc the presence of evil in the world and the suffering it causes makes no sense. This alone shows that God, if he exists, cannot be the all-powerful, all-knowing entity the Bible claims he is. The only reason I didn't reject Christianity completely and become an atheist is that there is indeed evidence of a god-like force of nature. It's called evolution. And the reason humans believe in God is because we each have a version of this god within us. All creatures are connected to the ecosystem, to nature through their DNA. We innately feel this presence because our subconscious is in contact with it.
But our ancestors had no understanding of evolution, nature and physics so they invented a person, God, to explain it all. I used to go along with Christianity but my logical mind eventually dismantled it when faced with the inconsistencies and contradictions of scripture. The whole concept of faith goes against common sense. To believe in something for which there is no evidence is a sign of madness. That sort of thinking is akin to superstition. Society cannot progress very far when it thinks like that. That sort of faith-thinking leads to evil and suffering, so it is unlikely that a loving God would have asked us to think like that.
The answer to the question posed by the thread is not simple. First, you need to define what you mean by God. If you're referring to our creator (evolution), then why wouldn't evil exist? It's the inevitable consequence of making immoral choices. But if you're referring to a God-person creator, then He would have had to have made a big mistake to include evil if he had any choice in the matter. |
Not to drift off from the primary topic, but I also found much foundation for my faith by recognizing the reality of evolution, and how (I believe) God's hand is guiding it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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DonQuoteme
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Jun 18, 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| Kraichgauer wrote: | | I also found much foundation for my faith by recognizing the reality of evolution, and how (I believe) God's hand is guiding it. |
I think it is a mistake for religions to reject the idea of evolution out of hand; evolution is far more apparent in the handywork of Nature than a six-day-creator's hand. By doing so, they are attacking the very process used by "their creator".
A person who chooses to be spiritual and moral should be able to do so without surrendering logical and rational thought to faith in something for which there is no evidence. Similarly, scientists need to be less religious about science, and be prepared to revise failed theories for which there is little or no evidence - such as evolution being nothing more than random chance. There is indeed a guiding hand in the process itself, a direction it is taking.
Society needs to stop equating religion with morality and evolution with immorality. Just because we have a common ancestor with Chimps or Bonobos does not mean that we descended from Chimps or Bonobos. Why do people cringe at the thought that we evolved? They should revere the magnificent process of evolution that brought us to where we are - because this is our creator god. A god, for my money, far more awesome than one who snapped His fingers 6000 years ago and made us the only viable ecosystem in the entire universe, only to leave us here to our own devices. |
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Kraichgauer
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 13, 2010
Age: 47
Posts: 12766
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| DonQuoteme wrote: | | Kraichgauer wrote: | | I also found much foundation for my faith by recognizing the reality of evolution, and how (I believe) God's hand is guiding it. |
I think it is a mistake for religions to reject the idea of evolution out of hand; evolution is far more apparent in the handywork of Nature than a six-day-creator's hand. By doing so, they are attacking the very process used by "their creator".
A person who chooses to be spiritual and moral should be able to do so without surrendering logical and rational thought to faith in something for which there is no evidence. Similarly, scientists need to be less religious about science, and be prepared to revise failed theories for which there is little or no evidence - such as evolution being nothing more than random chance. There is indeed a guiding hand in the process itself, a direction it is taking.
Society needs to stop equating religion with morality and evolution with immorality. Just because we have a common ancestor with Chimps or Bonobos does not mean that we descended from Chimps or Bonobos. Why do people cringe at the thought that we evolved? They should revere the magnificent process of evolution that brought us to where we are - because this is our creator god. A god, for my money, far more awesome than one who snapped His fingers 6000 years ago and made us the only viable ecosystem in the entire universe, only to leave us here to our own devices. |
Well said, sir! 
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 4897
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vigilans wrote: | | ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | If they believe, they are rewarded by him, like Job. |
"When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why God? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, "There's just something about you that pisses me off". " |
Good to know! I'll remember that next time.  
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Diagnostic Tools and Resources for Women with AS: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt211004.html |
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John_Browning
ON A LIST SOMEWHERE
Joined: Mar 23, 2009
Posts: 4456
Location: The shooting range
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Question for moderate to conservative Christians |
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| simon_says wrote: | | John_Browning wrote: | | Frieslander wrote: | | Why does God, if he exists, allow evil in the world? And, by evil I mean suffering, not so much what I consider more "moral" stuff like homosexual lifestyle, etc. I've heard the typical answer, but I wondered what you thought. |
Much of the trouble in the world can be traced back to some one or group's bad behavior if you look back far enough. Most of it falls back on greed, power, pride, sex (other than LTRs), and pursuit of pleasure at the expense of others. Then people who suffer under the above fall into the snare of laziness/apathy, substance abuse, sex (other than LTRs), and anger. I'm not going to give a history of the world here. Judge for yourself BASED ON THE MORALS OF THE TIME AND CULTURE RATHER THAN MODERN LIBERALISM and see where major mistakes were made even just on their own moral codes alone. |
Yes, that explains tsunamis and earthquakes and epidemics and the lingering deaths they cause. Sex and liberalism and pride. |
Cataclysms have to do more with when God chooses to allow people to die than suffering from evil in the world. Can, in theory, cataclysms be used by God for judgment against depraved people? Yes. Does he? That answer is out there, but people's opinions on the matter varies on your beliefs.
| Frieslander wrote: | Hmmm... so morals are relative? Some people say that abortion should be OK since it is not mentioned in the Bible.
I think you've got it wrong. I'm against abortion in most cases (or almost all), by the way, and I don't think we should allow God to allow bad things in the past just as many would not allow modern abortion. |
What I was getting at is that the moral standards of modern liberalism are so flexible and heavily based on relativism, so to get perspective on actions in history, for the purpose of internal consistency of the examination it would be best to analyze how various people violated the widely accepted culture and belief system they lived in. For example: the general concept of colonialism is not an issue by itself, but the treatment of [all] it's subjects and the royal pissing contests over the lands that different monarchs envy quickly becomes a slippery slope.
| ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote: | | Actually, sex, liberalism and pride is what caused Judaism and Islam. |
Sex, yes. Liberalism and pride, no. Ishmael was a mistake on Abraham's part because he got impatient with God. God allowed Ishmael and his subsequent spawn to exist, even though God did not approve of it, out of respect of the free will mankind was given.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud |
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