Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1680
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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me  |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
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Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
None of then hae a rght to the US in my opinon. |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
Posts: 5179
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
None of then hae a rght to the US in my opinon. |
I think Joker was implying that because previously the Americas were not inhabited by humans, the only ones with a true claim to it are the Native American Indians (both for the north and the south). It's more clear cut when they were quite distinctly the only ones there first. - unlike the British and French coloniziers and the conquistadors.
For most other places in the world, it is not as clear cut as on that continent.
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
None of then hae a rght to the US in my opinon. |
I think Joker was implying that because previously the Americas were not inhabited by humans, the only ones with a true claim to it are the Native American Indians (both for the north and the south). It's more clear cut when they were quite distinctly the only ones there first. - unlike the British and French coloniziers and the conquistadors.
For most other places in the world, it is not as clear cut as on that continent. |
It's not even clear-cut on the American continent. The native Americans arrived in at least two separate migration events. And remember, the concept of "native American" is a modern concept. At the time, they thought of themselves as a collection of hundreds of different groups, which considered each other to be as different from each other as it is possible for groups to be, and often went to war against each other.
So, does only the first wave deserve the continent? What about land which one group of native Americans took from another by war? Does the first group deserve that land, or the second? |
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Shatbat
Fénix
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Age: 20
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Location: South America
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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The way I take it is... some white Americans argument that they have more rights than anyone because they were here first. And what Joker said is the perfect counterargument for that.
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Vigilans
Orgasm Donor
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Age: 25
Posts: 12113
Location: La belle province
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
None of then hae a rght to the US in my opinon. |
I think joker was implying that because previously the Americas were not inhabited by humans, the only ones with a true claim to it are the Native American Indians (both for the north and the south). It's more clear cut when they were quite distinctly the only ones there first. - unlike the British and French coloniziers and the conquistadors.
For most other places in the world, it is not as clear cut as on that continent. |
There is tentative evidence that the people we consider Mesoamerican and Amerindian were not the first either. They may have displaced earlier settlers occasionally referred to as "American Aborigines". They are thought to be Australasian people, or close to them. The last remaining example of their culture may be the Fuegans of Tierra del Fuego, who are distinct from other native American societies
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Joker
Sinn Fein
Joined: Mar 20, 2011
Age: 24
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Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Declension wrote: | | Joker wrote: | | Everyone in America is a immagrant. Excpet those of Native American descant like me |
Even them, I'm afraid. Everyone in the world is an immigrant except possibly some people in East Africa. |
Nope people of native ancestry, have more of a right to a certin peace of land then others do. |
But it's a change in quantity, not quality. Are you saying that third-generation white immigrants in the US have more right to the land than first-generation white immigrants? |
None of then hae a rght to the US in my opinon. |
I think Joker was implying that because previously the Americas were not inhabited by humans, the only ones with a true claim to it are the Native American Indians (both for the north and the south). It's more clear cut when they were quite distinctly the only ones there first. - unlike the British and French coloniziers and the conquistadors.
For most other places in the world, it is not as clear cut as on that continent. |
True for the rest of the world it's not. In Americas case though for hundreds of years my anncestores where here befor. The first settelers showed up. |
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Kjas
Onçinha
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Age: 23
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Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | It's not even clear-cut on the American continent. The native Americans arrived in at least two separate migration events. And remember, the concept of "native American" is a modern concept. At the time, they thought of themselves as a collection of hundreds of different groups, which considered each other to be as different from each other as it is possible for groups to be, and often went to war against each other.
So, does only the first wave deserve the continent? What about land which one group of native Americans took from another by war? Does the first group deserve that land, or the second? |
They may be different, but genetically speaking,- they are much more similar than different. I know in the south, in some genes (e.g. HLA-DQ8) are carried by 99% or more of the population {by population I am referring to those who are pure blood natives, with no mixing}. That is something rarely seen in other places.
I know they're not in agreement with each other - but right now there are so few left that they probably aren't going to bother with old tribal disputes - at least not until they are more stable. Survivial comes first.
Even down south they put their disputes aside when it comes to major issues - I expect they would do the same here and tackle the entire thing one step at a time.
There is no point disputing which tribe owns it when there are outsiders on the land in the first place, logging, building dams and otherwise ruining the land itself.
| Vigilans wrote: | | There is tentative evidence that the people we consider Mesoamerican and Amerindian were not the first either. They may have displaced earlier settlers occasionally referred to as "American Aborigines". They are thought to be Australasian people, or close to them. The last remaining example of their culture may be the Fuegans of Tierra del Fuego, who are distinct from other native American societies |
Heh - impressive that you know about that. Only problematic part being there are no known survivors of those left now, at least none we can identify.
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Declension
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 21, 2012
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kjas wrote: | | They may be different, but genetically speaking,- they are much more similar than different. I know in the south, in some genes (e.g. HLA-DQ8) are carried by 99% or more of the population {by population I am referring to those who are pure blood natives, with no mixing}. That is something rarely seen in other places. |
There's an odd thing happening in this thread. In your attempts to justify the native Americans "deserving" the continent, you and Joker are beginning to sound like white nativists. First Joker said that people who were there earlier deserve it more, which is precisely what white nativists say. Now you are saying that genetic heritage is more important than self-identification, just like white nativists say!
The world is a messy place. When we look to the past, we don't get the answers we are looking for. Better to worry about injustices that are happening right now. |
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Kjas
Onçinha
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Age: 23
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Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Declension wrote: | There's an odd thing happening in this thread. In your attempts to justify the native Americans "deserving" the continent, you and Joker are beginning to sound like white nativists. First Joker said that people who were there earlier deserve it more, which is precisely what white nativists say. Now you are saying that genetic heritage is more important than self-identification, just like white nativists say!
The world is a messy place. When we look to the past, we don't get the answers we are looking for. Better to worry about injustices that are happening right now. |
(BTW: I have no idea what a white nativist is - you will have to explain)
Not at all Declension - I just don't wish to see people wiped off the map because of others greed - which is what is currently happening in one of my home countires and what has already happened in my other home country, there is one small commnity left there.
I am talking about things going on now that we can stop - they have their roots in the past but these injustices are still happening today.
There is a difference bewteen deserving and recongition. I would like to see those that are left (since there are so few), allowed to govern themselves as they see fit without outside interference - something that is on paper but is not enforced in my home country. As a result loggers, cattle ranchers and others often kill them without thought whenever they get in their way - and they get away with it as the rule, not the exception.
I'm not saying give the continent back - that wouldn't make any sense at this point.
I am just so sick of outsiders walking onto the reservations, taking or doing whatever they please, and usually committing murder in the process, which they are never even tried for, let alone punished for.
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Last edited by Kjas on Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:37 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Albirea
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AspieOtaku
Leader of the Otaku Legion
Joined: Feb 18, 2012
Age: 30
Posts: 5960
Location: Los Altos, California, United States
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Shatbat wrote: | | John_Browning wrote: |
Illegal aliens broke the law just by crossing the border. Then there's the littering, identity theft, fraud, and frequently driving without a license, DUI, hit and run, drunk in public, domestic violence, and they seem to find sex crimes more socially acceptable than other groups. That doesn't even include the rampant drugs, gangs, and rings of organized crime. They do boneheaded things while driving, and they are usually the ones creating noise ordinance violations and celebratory gunfire.
I haven't figured out if Hispanics are generally less intelligent or not, but their culture sure isn't helping. The one thing I have noticed is that since they now get student aid and have flooded the colleges like they do to everything else, the majority of them drop out halfway through and are seen less and less the more advanced the classes get. It's just one more way of draining the system. I'm sure there are a lot of skilled professionals in other countries, but we need to make jobs for the people we already have here first. Latin America and third world peasants have a piss poor sense of economics- it took a long time to build such a rich society, and a 8 hour work day and minimum wage, and we don't need a bunch of gomers destroying all that! |
Well... illegal immigrants and legal immigrants are diferent. The latter must usually work hard to get their papers, and show their worth. I have cousins who are natural born U.S. citizens, daughters of two legal immigrants who are now also U.S. citizens, and even them had to deal with the prejudice you're showing. The teachers of the oldest one didn't make as much of an effort to teach her as with the other ones, because they saw she was hispanic and thought her inferior. Also, her english skills were a little behind because of speaking spanish inside the household, and they confused it with stupidity. Only after a lot of hard work and consistently getting good grades could she prove them wrong. Saying we're lazy because of our race is really...  .
And believe me, I know a lot of quite capable, hard working hispanic people, who would do a better job than the average american. |
amen to that I agree with you 100% I have colleagues who are of hispanic descent and work hard and they themselves cannot stand illegal immigrants.
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Albirea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| YippySkippy wrote: | | Isn't college in Canada free for you? Why on earth would you pay an arm and a leg to go to school in the U.S. when you could attend in Canada? Plus, Canada has universal healthcare! If I were you, I'd move back to Canada and consider myself lucky. |
So it's wrong for me to want a world-class education in order to more easily succeed in life? My parents and I have honestly considered having me go to college in Canada (significantly cheaper, but still not free), but in the end, even they were against the idea.
Forgive me, but I have high aspirations.
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AspieOtaku
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Location: Los Altos, California, United States
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Albirea wrote: | | YippySkippy wrote: | | Isn't college in Canada free for you? Why on earth would you pay an arm and a leg to go to school in the U.S. when you could attend in Canada? Plus, Canada has universal healthcare! If I were you, I'd move back to Canada and consider myself lucky. |
So it's wrong for me to want a world-class education in order to more easily succeed in life? My parents and I have honestly considered having me go to college in Canada (significantly cheaper, but still not free), but in the end, even they were against the idea.
Forgive me, but I have high aspirations. |
I support ya and wel;come to America
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No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? http://www.anime44.com/anime-list |
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Albirea
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