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aghogday
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25 Oct 2013, 11:10 pm

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What you are saying here is not supported at all by science...

There are thousands upon thousands of references that show that humans are cooperative with each other to survive above all other qualities...

NOw... I will tell you this.. if you are weak and do not fit in they will kick you out..but still the majority do get along..and cooperate and survive..

And humans have become increasingly domesticated over the last several thousands of years...at the advent of agriculture..where the fruit of cooperation was finally much longer periods of leisure time..to basically play and have a better time..as existing....simply alive...

So what IT boils down to IS THIS..a matter of individual perception..if no one accepts you..humans are horrible..but if everyone accepts you they are great folks...

So sorry if you experience the first scenario..as that is the way of nature..the weak die..and the strong survive...

But the weak can ALSO be strong...given the belief to be so.....and never give up on themselves or lose faith in other humans as the kind and cooperative species.. the species is overall to survive..and thrive as still is the case in societies.. that work....

The greatest misanthropes area those people who simply are not accepted by other human beings...

And the greatest philanthropes are the ones who always love and keep faith in their fellow human beings..no matter their personal challenges in life..or the 'bad apples'..that may come their way in social interaction...

All I know is loving human beings as that is all I see of human beings...in the majority of real flesh and blood interaction...

The fantasies on TV and the internet..are never representative of real life..where people have to get along to even survive...Most people..that IS.....
Okay lets dispel with a couple of misconceptions you have about me and this discussion. First, I have no experience which causes me to be cynical, because I am not. I simply acknowledge the defects of human nature and our ability to overcome it. Second, I never said that people cannot be good. I only insist that we are not born good. Also, it is important to remember that Psychology is NOT a science, it's a study and even if it were, scientific findings are still open for discussion. Not being 100% sure is one of the beauties of science, which allow the reader to question the conclusions and attempt to provide alternative causes. You appear to want science elevated to a religion and destroy that which separate science from blind faith. Psyc research papers and studies are simply observable and unobservable reactions to a particular stimulus. The results can and do change. Under different situations with the suggestions I have described, I am confident the findings would be in favor of my assertion, however, that would not be "proof". This is a philosophical discussion, which will not warrant a perfect conclusion, simply a more agreed upon one.


Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..

They use the same scientific method...as any other science to test hypotheses and come to discussion and results...

And listen..I worked with the general public for two decades and have watched children from birth..and have personally interacted with tens of thousands of people..

I can count the number of bad apples I came across on two hands...

Perhaps people are not treating your kindly or perhaps you perceive it that way..but in general people do cooperate..and care for each other..at least those who have full access to emotional and cognitive empathy...

Additionally Anthropology..which happens to be my degree along with a degree in health science and social sciences interdisciplinary..also agree in all the research done that even prehistoric man was cooperative..and even cared for individuals with disabilities in some cases...did funeral rites..and all the other stuff commonly associated with religion...

Man is inherently cooperative..just like another social animal...Otherwise there would be no people on the planet..

Same as with any other social animal....

But don't feel bad..misanthropy is a common issue among people on the autism spectrum..as a result of non-acceptance and bullying...

And yeah..I experienced all of that when I was young..like so many other people do...but I decided early on that I was going to be a survivor not a not a victim..a few years later people referred to me as their favorite person..simply as I was not personally judgmental of other people...and I kept a smile on my face..as yes..I enjoy surviving and still do....

I experienced some of the most serious health problems that exists among mankind...and a big part of why I am almost recovered now..Is that same spirit of surving instead of being the victim...

I see the victim philosophy too much..and It's sad..

And no this is not directed at you personally...like you say IT is also a Philosophical discussion...

But as far as Science goes...there is no question that all social animals..cooperate at the basic level of instinct to survive..that's just simple evolutionary advantage..that Is ALL...

And no science is not my GOD..but yeah..IT IS part of GOD..as far as I see....


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Sherlock03
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25 Oct 2013, 11:49 pm

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Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..
I disagree and so do others http://mindhacks.com/2013/08/20/dont-pa ... a-science/ it is too subjective to be classified as science ( not to get off topic). The studies I have read on this subject were poorly conducted and the extraneous variables were not properly contained. If empathy were innate why must the behavior be cultivated and continual reinforced through development.Also, why should humans breach such conduct when it is supposed to be redundant to our very nature?


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aghogday
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26 Oct 2013, 12:05 am

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Actually.. Psychology is a science and is even included in the STEM classification for government funding in higher education..
I disagree and so do others http://mindhacks.com/2013/08/20/dont-pa ... a-science/ it is too subjective to be classified as science ( not to get off topic). The studies I have read on this subject were poorly conducted and the extraneous variables were not properly contained. If empathy were innate why must the behavior be cultivated and continual reinforced through development.Also, why should humans breach such conduct when it is supposed to be redundant to our very nature?


Really..mind hacks ...over Federal Government Classification...

I'll have to take the government over one website.. my friend...

The government has thousands of scientists both government service and contractors..that come to these decisions based on the consensus of some of the top science minds and opinions in the country...

Tom Insel.. who is the head of the National Institutes of Mental Health...is considered a 'rock star' of science....

My friend.. the emotional contagion of empathy is not considered full empathy...but IT is core to what eventually becomes full empathy..along with cognitive empathy..or the language and cognition required to understand the emotional experiences of others..

And there is absolutely no question that this emotional contagion..is a 'normal' innate quality...and again..not just for human beings..for other social animals like rats..wolves..and all the other successful social animals...

But again...there are some disorders including autism were some people suffer little to no emotional contagion..that can be observed through behavioral analysis...

One of the biggest issues with difficulties with empathy are parents who are not nurturing...It can be a vicious cycle as it is genetic..at least in part..

Some people are innately more empathic than other people..and even androgens..are understood to influence empathy as well..particularly the nurturing type of empathy..that many people on the spectrum are deficient in..possibly as a result of lower naturally occurring levels of oxytocin...


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Sherlock03
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26 Oct 2013, 10:09 am

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Really..mind hacks ...over Federal Government Classification...

I'll have to take the government over one website.. my friend...
Ha, that's funny considering government classifications in the past :lol: Point of fact it is not simply one website but a debate in general. I would suggest you view the evidence presented by both sides before you draw a conclusion.

So, empathy is an innate quality which is part of your genetic makeup. You claim to have been around thousands of children and will undoubtedly have witnessed young children stealing and harming other young children. How do you explain this behavior, which appears to contradict their natural and ingrained tendencies. Why does one child with a toy cry when he has a toy that the other child is crying for. Because the child wants to keep the toy and cries to maintain it. Why does a child cry after he hurts another child. Because he wants to avoid punishment. Crying does not always equate to sadness , nor do expressions of sadness equate to empathy.


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aghogday
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26 Oct 2013, 11:07 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Really..mind hacks ...over Federal Government Classification...

I'll have to take the government over one website.. my friend...
Ha, that's funny considering government classifications in the past :lol: Point of fact it is not simply one website but a debate in general. I would suggest you view the evidence presented by both sides before you draw a conclusion.

So, empathy is an innate quality which is part of your genetic makeup. You claim to have been around thousands of children and will undoubtedly have witnessed young children stealing and harming other young children. How do you explain this behavior, which appears to contradict their natural and ingrained tendencies. Why does one child with a toy cry when he has a toy that the other child is crying for. Because the child wants to keep the toy and cries to maintain it. Why does a child cry after he hurts another child. Because he wants to avoid punishment. Crying does not always equate to sadness , nor do expressions of sadness equate to empathy.


I"ve viewed hundreds of peer reviewed research articles that all come to the conclusion that humans overall are cooperative social animals...

Yeah..children cry..but that certainly does not make them bad to the bone...

They are just not to the point yet..where cognitive empathy is enhanced...and once again..yeah there are exceptions..for people with difficulty with the core building blocks of empathy..that lead to strong human relationships...but again...certainly not always the case...depending on the disorder..and..or environment an individual is raised in...how they were treated etc.etc.etc....


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Sherlock03
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27 Oct 2013, 10:50 am

Well, I would like to read a study that properly controls variables and measures empathy in a precise manner.


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aghogday
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27 Oct 2013, 9:03 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
Well, I would like to read a study that properly controls variables and measures empathy in a precise manner.


There is an institute that is leading the way in studying Empathy in Sweden...

It is the Max Planck mind instate...

There is a scientist by the name of Singer that is leading the way of research on Empathy there...

That's only one example..you can even start with something as simple as the Wiki article on empathy to find many more...

These folks are real rock stars of science at the Max planck Mind Institute..

It is not a place for social commentary..IT iS real hard science...

Even when IT comes to the science of the psychology of the human mind...

Any behavior that is observed can be measured by the scientific method...

And so called 'bad' behavior (outside of the social norm) s certainly one of the easiest measurable behaviors there is...


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28 Oct 2013, 11:32 am

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Any behavior that is observed can be measured by the scientific method...

And so called 'bad' behavior (outside of the social norm) s certainly one of the easiest measurable behaviors there is...
An interesting assessment. What makes you come to the conclusion that these traits can be so easily measured?


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aghogday
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28 Oct 2013, 2:21 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Any behavior that is observed can be measured by the scientific method...

And so called 'bad' behavior (outside of the social norm) s certainly one of the easiest measurable behaviors there is...
An interesting assessment. What makes you come to the conclusion that these traits can be so easily measured?


Behavioral analysis is actually more of a hard science that quantum physics...

It is based strictly on measurable phenomenon...

Whereas science is basically lost on quantum physics..as to how the observer effect works...

So...NO science is perfect..but behavioral analysis is as good as IT gets with measuring what makes human beings tick..

Until we get some type of brain scan analysis..

Which there are limited models that do this..that measure emotional contagion....

And there is a study that shows that individuals with Autism with the condition of Alexithymia which constitutes approximately 85 percent of the studied demographic..experience lesser amounts of emotional empathy..than control groups...

This is done..with a brain scan analysis...

So basically any opinions given on this website..a website for people on the autism spectrum will be skewed away from the average experience of empathy and life overall..

Which means that while I have no idea how you experience empathy..chances are if you are autistic..you may experience it much differently than the average person..which could color your view of the entire human race much differently than most other people...

Personally I have always historically had extreme levels of emotional contagion to the point where I could not separate the emotions of others from myself..

I lost almost all my emotional contagion after a serious chronic illness..

So I've been to both places now...

And yeah the one without emotional contagion..is what I describe as HELL..after living in that world of extreme connection with human beings most of my life...

I can sense the positive and the negative in people..and It is so far..about 80% positive for what I can subjectively measure in my life...

But that my friend is just my opinion..from my own view of my own Universe which i experience..differently as all people do from each other to some degree as understood by modern science...

Science says man is a cooperative animal..and yeah basically a love animal at heart..that makes the human race go on...

Without LOVE the human race is doomed..

And I am talking about the charitable kind of cooperation that human beings strive to make to survive...that is what I am referring to as LOVE..not that mushy stuff that people talk about when the love hormones get jacked up for reproduction..when new lovers hook up...


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28 Oct 2013, 6:27 pm

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Behavioral analysis is actually more of a hard science that quantum physics...

It is based strictly on measurable phenomenon...

Whereas science is basically lost on quantum physics..as to how the observer effect works...

So...NO science is perfect..but behavioral analysis is as good as IT gets with measuring what makes human beings tick..


Quantum Physics is kind of on shaky science ground. The Problem with Psychology is that it is subjective and can be hard to reproduce the same results.


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28 Oct 2013, 7:31 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Behavioral analysis is actually more of a hard science that quantum physics...

It is based strictly on measurable phenomenon...

Whereas science is basically lost on quantum physics..as to how the observer effect works...

So...NO science is perfect..but behavioral analysis is as good as IT gets with measuring what makes human beings tick..


Quantum Physics is kind of on shaky science ground. The Problem with Psychology is that it is subjective and can be hard to reproduce the same results.


Actually, quantum physics is not on shaky ground, it's pretty well established. The only problem with quantum physics is that it took us a while to get over the philosophical implications involving the loss of determinism but that doesn't have much to do with science as such. All we know is that quantum physics accurately describes how nature works on the atomic scale and smaller.



aghogday
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28 Oct 2013, 8:38 pm

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Behavioral analysis is actually more of a hard science that quantum physics...

It is based strictly on measurable phenomenon...

Whereas science is basically lost on quantum physics..as to how the observer effect works...

So...NO science is perfect..but behavioral analysis is as good as IT gets with measuring what makes human beings tick..


Quantum Physics is kind of on shaky science ground. The Problem with Psychology is that it is subjective and can be hard to reproduce the same results.


Of course..all human beings change from second to second adapting to the environment..through the process of neuroplasticity..and epigenetic influences...

For instance at the height of my reciprocal social communication difficulties I scored 44 to 45 on the Autism Quotient test..

Now I score an 11...

The therapist I see considers it an actual miracle...

Not only is the brain an organ with a great potential for adaptation..the physical body as whole..does the similar process when faced with environmental demands..not before challenged...

For instance at age 13..I was an extremely scrawny kid..but never the less very strong for my size..almost unbelievably strong..as my body did what it had to..to survive the bullies in the environment..

At age 48 I could not lift my arms without almost passing out...

Now I dance almost like a professional dancer..and can easily curl 210 pounds on a Nautilus machine with my arms..at age 53...

And I am about 6 FT and weigh 222LBs of mostly muscle over fat..as compared to 5ft 10 and about 120 Lbs at 13...

Bottom line is I am stronger and healthier than at any time in my life..overall...

Other bottom line is..if people tell you getting weak is inevitable when you reach your fifties...or your mind will diminish..they know limitations..that IS ALL..and those of US that don't..can do pretty much whatever they find their passion for...

Human beings are incredible biological machines that can adapt to incredible challenges in life..

Problems is though that when people believe they have limitations and cannot meet expectations..they simply do not meet them...

Whereas people with no belief in limitations can meet almost any personal expectation..with the correct ingredients of passion and overall drive to survive..

Nature takes care of the rest of IT..

So in short there will never be overall consistent results for any species..adapting to a challenging environment..in measuring the way the mind works from one day to the next...

But this is actually great as humans can only put themselves in Jail by expecting consistencies in potentials rather than almost unlimited potentials..which is the reality of being a human...

That is basically why we exist today...

This great ability for adapting to almost any environmental challenge..

But yeah..Roaches are still..KINg as far as adapting to the environment goes....

But anyway..even tests like the AQ test..offer insights into human behavior..

An 11..is incredible for a person on the spectrum...

But seriously with due humility..and objective analysis..I am incredible..

But anyone who truly has passion for living and surviving can be incredible too...

Including you if..you are not already there...


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Last edited by aghogday on 29 Oct 2013, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sherlock03
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28 Oct 2013, 9:51 pm

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Actually, quantum physics is not on shaky ground, it's pretty well established. The only problem with quantum physics is that it took us a while to get over the philosophical implications involving the loss of determinism but that doesn't have much to do with science as such. All we know is that quantum physics accurately describes how nature works on the atomic scale and smaller.
I am not an expert, but from what I have read, the theory's are almost impossible to test but have a certain logical order.


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aghogday
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29 Oct 2013, 11:07 am

Sherlock03 wrote:
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Actually, quantum physics is not on shaky ground, it's pretty well established. The only problem with quantum physics is that it took us a while to get over the philosophical implications involving the loss of determinism but that doesn't have much to do with science as such. All we know is that quantum physics accurately describes how nature works on the atomic scale and smaller.
I am not an expert, but from what I have read, the theory's are almost impossible to test but have a certain logical order.


Yes you are correct.. I think he just misunderstood your intent in communication... I understood you...

Science is pouring out an incredible amount of money to even attempt to test these theories..

But yes..this phenomenon exists..There is no doubt about that...

We as humans observing the forces of energy are energy in effect and affect energy in effect also....

That IS really just common sense..

For people who are truly mindfully aware of their realities..this is everyday experience....

Throughout the age of human beings existence on this planet....

But not everyone can sense this common sense..

Therefore there are people who do not have this common sense...

It is more a less a disability..
In real life..

Th@IS....

For those who truly perceive what can be...

Of WH@IS....
IS
IT...
In total of ALL..as ONE..
WE ARE IT..
AS ONE..

It's not easy to find language to describe these nuances of human perception..but I try..itry..ITry..ICry!
And nah..not the tears kind of crying...

JUST PASSION IS ALL....
IS IT IS ALL....
ONE


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