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AspieOtaku
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13 Apr 2014, 1:34 am

TBH I dont identify as a feminist or an MRA but a humanist aka egalitarian! I sometimes like to mock the all out radicals of the movements because people who follow the movement deny to take responsibility for it. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPok3q932rk[/youtube] Ahh another GirldoesRant vid on RADICAL feminism...not feminism in question I surely hope folks get it through their thick heads. :roll: And Im totally OK with sex possitive feminists because for once they seem level headed and make sense of things!


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AspergianMutantt
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13 Apr 2014, 1:41 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
So, not trusting women involves constantly posting snide threads about feminism? Just the man hating branches like radical feminism like what the lovely Andrea Dworkin likes to say! Unless you dont believe radical feminism exists... Maybe you agree with this? http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/


Wow, that lady who blogged that is a real man hater, if she hates sex and men so much perhaps she should never have sex and give up on ever having children. our race wouldn't exist without sex, and if sex was so evil to women then by choice why not all women be dikes or have no interest at all? secondly, if she really does feel that way then she is waisting to much life and time hating men then getting on with her life, or perhaps she is hating men so much because she feels there is something wrong with her and just does not want to admit it. but to say each time a man stick his penis in a woman is rape regardless if its even consensual love making is just to much. I have met women who acted or was pretty sex starved them selves (although rare), its fun when the woman becomes the tiger, would that be considered raping the woman too? according to that lady it would seem so.

Tell me, if women disliked men or sex with men so much, then why are they so plentiful on dating sites? Hoping for some man to take care of them like he is their daddy? they can find that with a dike or let the system take care of them or they just take care of them selves. hmmm must be some reason for this....


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13 Apr 2014, 4:00 am

AspergianMutantt wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
So, not trusting women involves constantly posting snide threads about feminism? Just the man hating branches like radical feminism like what the lovely Andrea Dworkin likes to say! Unless you dont believe radical feminism exists... Maybe you agree with this? http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/


Wow, that lady who blogged that is a real man hater, if she hates sex and men so much perhaps she should never have sex and give up on ever having children. our race wouldn't exist without sex, and if sex was so evil to women then by choice why not all women be dikes or have no interest at all? secondly, if she really does feel that way then she is waisting to much life and time hating men then getting on with her life, or perhaps she is hating men so much because she feels there is something wrong with her and just does not want to admit it. but to say each time a man stick his penis in a woman is rape regardless if its even consensual love making is just to much. I have met women who acted or was pretty sex starved them selves (although rare), its fun when the woman becomes the tiger, would that be considered raping the woman too? according to that lady it would seem so.

Tell me, if women disliked men or sex with men so much, then why are they so plentiful on dating sites? Hoping for some man to take care of them like he is their daddy? they can find that with a dike or let the system take care of them or they just take care of them selves. hmmm must be some reason for this....


I remember that one, from AspieOtaku linking earlier. I suppose she would argue, sincerely, that any perceived enjoyment or desire is something like stockholm syndrome, is a response to what she sees as abuse - that the woman has beome conditioned. Thing is, I don't see why anyone would get het up about this stuff. What actual impact will it have on your lives? It's a very rare position, and it's not going to persuade anyone who isn't already very sympathetic.

On the other hand, I've read too many sincere writings, by men, that women enjoy being raped. That they invite it and welcome it. Such things are more likely to have a negative effect on society than radical separatist feminists.


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AspieOtaku
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13 Apr 2014, 4:39 am

Hopper wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
So, not trusting women involves constantly posting snide threads about feminism? Just the man hating branches like radical feminism like what the lovely Andrea Dworkin likes to say! Unless you dont believe radical feminism exists... Maybe you agree with this? http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/


Wow, that lady who blogged that is a real man hater, if she hates sex and men so much perhaps she should never have sex and give up on ever having children. our race wouldn't exist without sex, and if sex was so evil to women then by choice why not all women be dikes or have no interest at all? secondly, if she really does feel that way then she is waisting to much life and time hating men then getting on with her life, or perhaps she is hating men so much because she feels there is something wrong with her and just does not want to admit it. but to say each time a man stick his penis in a woman is rape regardless if its even consensual love making is just to much. I have met women who acted or was pretty sex starved them selves (although rare), its fun when the woman becomes the tiger, would that be considered raping the woman too? according to that lady it would seem so.

Tell me, if women disliked men or sex with men so much, then why are they so plentiful on dating sites? Hoping for some man to take care of them like he is their daddy? they can find that with a dike or let the system take care of them or they just take care of them selves. hmmm must be some reason for this....


I remember that one, from AspieOtaku linking earlier. I suppose she would argue, sincerely, that any perceived enjoyment or desire is something like stockholm syndrome, is a response to what she sees as abuse - that the woman has beome conditioned. Thing is, I don't see why anyone would get het up about this stuff. What actual impact will it have on your lives? It's a very rare position, and it's not going to persuade anyone who isn't already very sympathetic.

On the other hand, I've read too many sincere writings, by men, that women enjoy being raped. That they invite it and welcome it. Such things are more likely to have a negative effect on society than radical separatist feminists.
Rape is not pleasurable at all :( .


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AspergianMutantt
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13 Apr 2014, 9:58 am

Its been shown that when a woman is expecting to be raped she will lubricate, and many times even feel pleasure, all against her will. if a woman didn't lubricate in that way she could be damaged. And it has been shown, when a male gets raped he will get an erection, even ejaculate, all against his will. In either case it is confusing because neither would have wanted or liked the experience yet their bodies rebelled as an subconsciousness act of self preservation. and this is one reason why many need therapy so badly after.

You may say no a male has to want it or enjoy it to get that erection and ejaculate, but if he is forced to be with someone he does not want to be with (say anther male), at gun point, his body will rebel as a subconsciousness act of self preservation.. which really screws with his head, esp if after the person who assaulted the individual tells you that you must have enjoyed it to have gotten to that point after all. women even get this when others say they must have liked it because they lubricated even orgasmed them selves. when its all a head phuck.

Many women do like the idea of being taken and dominated in the bedroom, but that does not mean they like being raped. this I can understand, they try all their lives to be pretty and so perhaps in their fantasies they want the male their attracted too to find them so irresistible as to want to take them. I know I love it when a women becomes that tiger and takes me, it feels great to feel your that desired by the one you desire as well. its a big ego boost. but it does not mean they like being or want to be raped.


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13 Apr 2014, 10:31 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
TBH I dont identify as a feminist or an MRA but a humanist aka egalitarian! I sometimes like to mock the all out radicals of the movements because people who follow the movement deny to take responsibility for it. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPok3q932rk[/youtube] Ahh another GirldoesRant vid on RADICAL feminism...not feminism in question I surely hope folks get it through their thick heads. :roll: And Im totally OK with sex possitive feminists because for once they seem level headed and make sense of things!


I wasn't sure I believed that whole "OMG I talked to a feminist in a coffee shop and it's all cool!" thing ever really happened, and now I believe it even less.



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13 Apr 2014, 11:25 am

Hopper wrote:
AspergianMutantt wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
So, not trusting women involves constantly posting snide threads about feminism? Just the man hating branches like radical feminism like what the lovely Andrea Dworkin likes to say! Unless you dont believe radical feminism exists... Maybe you agree with this? http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/


Wow, that lady who blogged that is a real man hater, if she hates sex and men so much perhaps she should never have sex and give up on ever having children. our race wouldn't exist without sex, and if sex was so evil to women then by choice why not all women be dikes or have no interest at all? secondly, if she really does feel that way then she is waisting to much life and time hating men then getting on with her life, or perhaps she is hating men so much because she feels there is something wrong with her and just does not want to admit it. but to say each time a man stick his penis in a woman is rape regardless if its even consensual love making is just to much. I have met women who acted or was pretty sex starved them selves (although rare), its fun when the woman becomes the tiger, would that be considered raping the woman too? according to that lady it would seem so.

Tell me, if women disliked men or sex with men so much, then why are they so plentiful on dating sites? Hoping for some man to take care of them like he is their daddy? they can find that with a dike or let the system take care of them or they just take care of them selves. hmmm must be some reason for this....


I remember that one, from AspieOtaku linking earlier. I suppose she would argue, sincerely, that any perceived enjoyment or desire is something like stockholm syndrome, is a response to what she sees as abuse - that the woman has beome conditioned. Thing is, I don't see why anyone would get het up about this stuff. What actual impact will it have on your lives? It's a very rare position, and it's not going to persuade anyone who isn't already very sympathetic.

On the other hand, I've read too many sincere writings, by men, that women enjoy being raped. That they invite it and welcome it. Such things are more likely to have a negative effect on society than radical separatist feminists.


Could you post a link? I haven't seen such a thing.



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13 Apr 2014, 12:46 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
I wasn't sure I believed that whole "OMG I talked to a feminist in a coffee shop and it's all cool!" thing ever really happened, and now I believe it even less.
Well it was a sex possitive feminist not a rad feminist. Do you not understand the concept of RADICAL feminism? Rad fems that say that all sex is rape even consensual? Then ya got the Tumblrtards as well? Yeah im a male no im not in a position of power but yet get blamed for the patriarchy whenever I try to have a friendly chat with them. When I had a conversation with a sex possitive feminist it was a totally different story so im kinda conflicted at times. Anyway I dont care anymore they can do whatever they want just not throw me into the blame game like patriarchy crap. SPF is fine in my book RF isnt that is all.


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13 Apr 2014, 1:25 pm

Look, the bottom line is that none of this obsession is improving your life in any meaningful way. Stop thinking of everyone around you in terms of advocacy groups that are plotting to destroy you.



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13 Apr 2014, 1:49 pm

AspergianMutantt wrote:
Many women do like the idea of being taken and dominated in the bedroom, but that does not mean they like being raped. this I can understand, they try all their lives to be pretty and so perhaps in their fantasies they want the male their attracted too to find them so irresistible as to want to take them. I know I love it when a women becomes that tiger and takes me, it feels great to feel your that desired by the one you desire as well. its a big ego boost. but it does not mean they like being or want to be raped.


People like all sorts of things in the bounds of a consensual relationship, and when you factor in masturbatory fantasies then you can go wherever your imagination and libido take you. And really, why not?

One of the most traumatic experiences there is is to have a fantasy (of any sort) come to life unbidden - that feeling of a wall crumbling between our inner selves and the outside world is horrific. Children will often fantasise about being orphans. I don't think they'd be thankful if their parents were killed.

NobodyKnows wrote:
Hopper wrote:
On the other hand, I've read too many sincere writings, by men, that women enjoy being raped. That they invite it and welcome it. Such things are more likely to have a negative effect on society than radical separatist feminists.


Could you post a link? I haven't seen such a thing.


I probably could, but I won't. I came across such things a while back, during a heady few days of perusing MRA stuff and links therefrom. It's not on my history anymore, and I'd have to Google to try and find them. And even if I could be bothered - it's a pretty f*****g depressing thing to go looking for - I wouldn't want to link to them.

But when couched in a less direct statement, it's a fairly common assumption/assertion. AspergianMutantt above has critiqued some of the ''''''''thinking'''''''' behind it. It's the end point of the 'but look how you were dressed!', 'you were seen flirting with him earlier on!', 'yeah, but it wasn't rape rape was it?' arguments.


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You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


Last edited by Hopper on 13 Apr 2014, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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13 Apr 2014, 1:51 pm

http://www.policymic.com/articles/87485 ... is-a-thing


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13 Apr 2014, 2:54 pm

Hopper wrote:
But when couched in a less direct statement, it's a fairly common assumption/assertion. AspergianMutantt gave some of the ''''''''thinking'''''''' behind it. It's the end point of the 'but look how you were dressed!', 'you were seen flirting with him earlier on!', 'yeah, but it wasn't rape rape was it?' arguments.


I do not know how to take your statement, I been raped before, if your suggesting I have any of that mentality let me bust you a cap.


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13 Apr 2014, 3:00 pm

AspergianMutantt wrote:
Hopper wrote:
But when couched in a less direct statement, it's a fairly common assumption/assertion. AspergianMutantt gave some of the ''''''''thinking'''''''' behind it. It's the end point of the 'but look how you were dressed!', 'you were seen flirting with him earlier on!', 'yeah, but it wasn't rape rape was it?' arguments.


I do not know how to take your statement, I been raped before, if your suggesting I have any of that mentality let me bust you a cap.


Not at all. I was just about to edit my own post to clarify such - I saw how it could be read as such and wanted to correct any thinking.

I just meant that you wrote out, completely without endorsement and with criticism, some of the 'biological' arguments put forward by such people.

No offence meant.


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13 Apr 2014, 3:45 pm

Misslizard wrote:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/87485/an-open-letter-to-the-sexists-who-think-female-privilege-is-a-thing


That felt good to read. Then I saw this link at the bottom of the page and decided to read it.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/69867 ... e-for-rape

Now I feel bad again.



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13 Apr 2014, 8:59 pm

Misslizard wrote:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/87485/an-open-letter-to-the-sexists-who-think-female-privilege-is-a-thing


1. Female privilege is being able to walk down the street at night without people crossing the street because they’re automatically afraid of you.

The site that you linked to gave this retort, which isn't quite a rebuttal: "Male privilege is being able to walk in public without being sexually harassed on a regular basis." I'll give a counter-example from my own life: I had several friends who worked at a cafe near my apartment where all of the staff were young women. I only knew one of them at first, and once asked another if my friend were getting enough hours. She made some snide comment about sexual harassment to another gal working there. I explained that another good friend of mine was an experienced barista and was looking for work. I asked because I wouldn't have bothered to pick up an application for him if hours were already tight there. It's fine to be bothered by harrassment, but make sure that that's really what it is.

2. Female privilege is being able to approach someone and ask them out without being labeled “creepy.”

His retort: "Male privilege is the ability to occupy any space and not be inundated with attempted flirting." Again, not every 'Hello' is attempted flirting. And on the topic of unwanted intrusion, I'm often asked questions by women whose aim is to find out how much I make. I grew up in a wealthy family, have no interest in gold-diggers, and find it irritating.

3. Female privilege is being able to get drunk and have sex without being considered a rapist. Female privilege is being able to engage in the same action as another person but be considered the innocent party by default.

His retort: "Male privilege is claiming that men are oppressed because they can't have sex with drunk women — even if men are drunk — without being labeled rapists, despite the fact that we know consent is not a difficult concept and that male predators — even drunk ones — know what they're doing." Consent actually can be difficult. The safe option is to not date girls who aren't clear about it, but that narrows the field a lot. It's not just men who have a weakness: Plenty of women choose to cohabitate with predictable abusers because they don't want to be alone.

I read this account of a rape: The two college students were making out. The girl wasn't sure how much farther she wanted to go when the guy pressed her down onto her knees and said "I think that's fair." She performed oral sex on him, and only realized later that she'd been raped.

When I mentioned a similar, gender-reversed case to an outspoken feminist who I knew to be particularly sensitive about rape, she focused on the fact that the man had been "passive", rather than the fact that the woman had been the aggressor, and that he would have needed to use some physical force to stop her.

5. Female privilege is the idea that women and children should be the first rescued from any sort of emergency situation. Female privilege is saving yourself before you save others and not being viewed as a monster.

His retort: "Male privilege is looking at other men put women on a pedestal and getting angry … at the women. Here's a protip, Mark: If you're going to rant about the myth of "women and children first" policies, do your homework first so you don't look like an uninformed jackass."

I had a female friend who grew up in a family with similar patterns to my own: She had an overbearing father who didn't give her any space, and a mother who gave in to him. My family was a gender-inversion of that. When she wanted to break away, she was able to openly call her dad a narcissist, expect people in her social circle to back her up, and find a lot of support in the community and at college. No such luck for me when I wanted to do the same. Everybody thought that my duty to family should come before looking out for myself.

6. Female privilege is being able to decide not to have a child.

His retort: "Male privilege is believing you have a right to decide what a woman does with her body." Mine: Female privilege is believing that you have the right to decide what a man does with his body, his mind and anything else that might be milked for profit during the following 18 years. The idea that child support in the case of a half-wanted pregnancy is "for the child" is right out of the 1950s. May I open that door for you?

He continued: "It's also having the ability to skip town and abandon a woman you impregnated because of lax laws on paternity and child support." I will cover that below. More: "It's also ranting how you feel women aren't attracted to you even though you're a "nice guy" but curiously can't make a connection between that and how you generally treat women like objects with no personal autonomy." That's unrelated, backed by stereotypes, and designed to needle men on topics that the culture conditions us to feel insecure about. Classy.

7. Female privilege is not having to support a child financially for 18 years when you didn’t want to have it in the first place.

His retort: "Male privilege is being the only parent purely capable of escaping legal ties to a child because you're not the one birthing the child." That makes no sense. How can I escape legal ties to the child? Even skipping the country isn't enough, since the US has treaties with many others governing child support. Any job that posts your contact info online makes it easy for child support case-workers to find you. If he were pro-life and his argument were about physical privilege rather than legal privilege, it might make sense.

8. Female privilege is never being told to “take it like a man” or “man up.”

His retort: "Male privilege is overlooking the fact that when a man is told to "man up," what it really means is "don't be like a woman" because if society has taught us anything, it's that being a woman is a lesser state of being." This fits his thesis that every element of male culture is an attack on women. It's wrong. When I worked in R&D, the distinction was between men and boys, not men and women.

13. Female privilege is not having to take your career seriously because you can depend on marrying someone who makes more money than you do. Female privilege is being able to be a “stay at home mom” and not seem like a loser.

His retort: "Male privilege is not having to navigate life while being forced by cultural pressure to choose between a rewarding career and a rewarding family life." I'm not sure how men or the culture are guilty here, or how men are free to have it both ways while women can't. The men in my family struggled with that a lot.

He continues: "It's also watching the men you love being called a "loser" by other men because they support the women they love by being a homemaker." For someone who doesn't think that I should have ownership of my own body, he's sure eager to set the world straight on men's issues here.

15. Female privilege is being favored by teachers in elementary, middle and high school. Female privilege is graduating high school more often, being accepted to more colleges, and generally being encouraged and supported along the way.

His retort: "Male privilege is believing that a higher rate of women graduating high school and college leads to success when in reality, women make up only 4.6% of Fortune 500 CEOs, 18.2% of the U.S. House of Representatives, 20% of the Senate, 27.4% of college presidents, 19.5% of law partners and 30.4% of active physicians. And need I mention again the gender wage gap?"

When I last heard, we had more female medical graduates than male graduates, and women who ran for office won at a slightly higher rate.

16. Female privilege being able to have an opinion without someone tell you you’re just “a butthurt fedora-wearing neckbeard who can’t get any.”

Retort: "Male privilege is believing that any opinion you give, no matter how ridiculous, childish, or lacking in education or nuance, deserves to be held up above others, particularly those who aren’t male or white." I'll respond to this and the next one together.

17. Female privilege is being able to talk about sexism without appearing self-serving.

His retort: "Male privilege is the ability to look at the mountain of data that clearly demonstrate how women are discriminated against across the board and still taking the time to write a half-assed blog for Thought Catalog that utterly fails to counter this data." Cherry picked data? WRAs have a poor record of intellectual rigor:

They used obvious selection bias and premature closure to build this argument: 'Excesses of "fighting-age" men have coincided with outbreaks of war over the centuries; therefore young, testosterone-soaked men cause wars.'

As I pointed out elsewhere, "fighting age" men lacked the resources to wage a war at any point in the last millennium or two. They didn't even get to vote in the US until the 1970s. (The draft age was 18, voting age was 21.) Canning of food didn't come in until the Napoleonic Wars. How would they eat? Cheap, strong steel is a 20th Century invention. Before then, weapons quality steel was smelted near the tip of Sri Lanka in the monsoon season, then taken by small wooden sailing ships to an unloading point. From there, a trader with a mule cart would walk it to Europe.

Even a history professor at a Bible college would know better. The notion of war as a population control measure has been in classical literature as far back to the 1500s, and has fewer contradictions. They either didn't ask for review, or it wasn't an honest mistake.

David Reuben wrote in 'Everything you always wanted to now about sex, but were afraid to ask': "Every sick penis is attached to a sick man. Cure the man and the penis gets well by itself." He went on to describe men who climax "too slowly" or "too quickly" as defective and woman-hating.



Last edited by NobodyKnows on 13 Apr 2014, 10:58 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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13 Apr 2014, 9:21 pm

What a wall of puerile, self-absorbed drivel. If you think arguments like those merit a reasoned response, or qualify as actual debate -- and clearly, you do -- then you have no grasp of the relative merits of different kinds of arguments. You don't understand the difference between a credible threat and a bruised ego, and you don't comprehend how someone so self-absorbed will naturally come across as a creep and get treated as such even when not doing anything creepy.

You've had some hard luck, clearly. Humiliation can make it hard to cultivate humility, but misplaced pride and egoism make it impossible. Anyone who tells you that you are both superior and oppressed probably doesn't make sense in many other ways, as well.

Women do awful things. Men do awful things. We all have stories, but your vast conspiracy doesn't hold water.