Is Being Gay a 'Choice'?

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What Tallyman said.


There are monks who identify as "gay but celibate" just like most monks identify as "straight but celibate". In both cases they have the respective urges, but choose not to act on them.

Exactly. I was a monk for a while in my youth. I was most definitely straight but celibate. In no way was I asexual. Despite being celibate in deed/actions it didn't stop me from having sexual fantasies about women. I'm sure most celibate priests are the same; they are either celibate heterosexuals or celibate homosexuals or celibate asexuals.

As others have already said, celibacy is not asexuality and as the Wiki page you linked also says:

Urges can exist against our volition. Yet still, we can control the urges we do have to a certain known extent - 'you are what you eat' applies well, and passions can be worked around. I suppose this is linked to suppressing urges, passions and desires, brought back earlier, including by other users.



The innate is one of the components and an important one no doubt. I don't think I covered anything, but I've had more space to explain what seems to be true to me as more discussion took place.



Apologetics can be any defence for whenever something gets attacked or otherwise threatened or even criticised. I'd say any movement, ideology or organisation is open to criticism and would therefore be entitled to defence.



Trust me, I know what actual harassment is and this is very meek stuff going on here. Some people seem to know or understand something I don't, and I've been consistent in my curiosity of learning what that is.

Regarding unsaid things, fancy me not actually thinking anything repulsive or terribly brutal with regards to the subject matter that I would be so interested in concealing? I do think I'm a good deal less categorical in my judgement than some of the people I've "argued" against.

Also, the link doesn't work I'm afraid!

I checked out your other posts, Valk, and I have a general idea of some of the things that you believe. You do seem like a reasonable person, though, so I don't hold it against you. I suspect that some of the things that you believe would violate the terms of service for the site, so I don't think that anyone should try to force you to say them. Apparently, asserting that people's private behavior is wrong is against the TOS when it comes to certain types of behavior for which people face all kinds of awful persecution. I can see the point, sort of, but that's neither here nor there. If you don't judge what people do in private, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you have the sort of complex, nuanced views that you find difficult to translate into simple declarative statements, then I feel for you when it comes to this kind of internet debate. In some peoples' minds, such views do not exist except as a mask for bigots. Those folks have good reason to suspect that, though, because plenty of huge bigots in the media hide behind assertions of nuanced views when in fact they don't really do anything but hate for profit.

Ok, thank you. However , I am still not convinced ...

My instincts makes me believe in choice, because otherwise we would be putting a limit on the magnificence and ingenuity of the human mind.

1. First evidence I cite is that of Enuchs choosing castration ...

"Most eunuchs who are castrated before puberty are asexual"

source, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

Conceivably, some male adults could be asexual too after castration.

Thus, it would appear that human males can choose to be castrated, and achieve asexuality. Thus, choosing not to be gay.

2. Second evidence I cite is ...

We would have to believe that no monk and nun can achieve asexuality through their vows, and mental efforts.

3. Third evidence I cite is ...

We would have to believe that medicines such as Depo-Provera, medroxyprogesterone acetate and other "chemical castration" drugs could never have the side effect of making someone asexual. Otherwise, the choice to change oneself would be there. This would not seem implausible, since earlier I cited that castration can make someone asexual.

4. Fourth evidence I cite ...

Lastly, we would have to accept that say a gay male say could never be attracted to a woman who resembles a man, or dresses as a man.

Otherwise, by definition, he would have a same-sex "romantic attraction, or sexual attraction ".

Re: LoveNotHate

I think it's a spectrum. A lot of females admit having attraction to some females but they still consider themselves straight for the most part.

The same is probably true for men, although I have to say I find men rather repulsive. There may be a spectrum where some men find other men attractive but are by and large straight.

I don't want to go any further into this, but my gut tells me that it is primarily genetic. Also, the problem is many disingenuous people use the argument that "gayness is a choice" to oppress them simply because they don't like them. I don't think that is what you are doing.

It really doesn't even matter if it is a choice or not so I don't concern myself much with it. It's about freedom.

Thanks.

I don't believe in accepting poor critical thinking, just to be politically correct.

(Ask people who were asserting absolute "white priviledge" on another forum).

What the Fing F does ANY of this have to do with anything?????????????

You become hetero for the same reason you have two eyes. you're born that way. Likewise gays become gay for the same reason.


No matter how much will power you appy to yourself. You will not grow a third eyeball in your forehead. No matter how psychotherapy you get, no matter much religous training, and how much moralistic haranging you get, it will not cause you to grow a third eyeball in your forehead.

Choosing your sexual orientation is like "choosing" the number of eyeballs you have. You DONT choose it- in the normal understanding of the word "choose".

HOWEVER

Yes- if you underwent radical plastic surgery- had your skull reengineered, had your nervous system radically rewired, and so forth,- then- in theory- you probably could aquire a working third eyeball in your forehead.

So yes-in that sense- you could say the each and everyone of us has "chosen" NOT to have a third eyeball because each one of us has "chosen" to not undergo that kind of radical surgery.

But thats not what is normally thought of as a "choice".

These points about "castration", and the chemical labotomy of taking certain drugs is in the same category has remodeling your skull to aquire a third eyeball. Not what are normally thought of as "choices".

Time to lock this ill conceived thread as the so called evidence in support of "gay being a choice" is becoming more and more ridiculous and seems to be based more on prejudice rather than sense or logic. All real debate has finished some time ago. It is also against the site rules to express homophobic views and some members are pushing the line too far. The site has a number of gay members and it isn't for others to critique or object to their sexuality or to tell them they can change their sexual orientation if they wanted.