Are MRAs always angry?

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[Citation Needed]

Yes, it's normal. You used the phrase 'much of society take it as a natural standard procedure'. I used the word 'normal'. It is a social norm. It shouldn't be, but it is and, as I say, it being normal does not make it right. My pointing out its normality, and explaining why it was normal, was to explain part of the reason most people don't think about it the way they do FGM.

This is the full post he took the quote from:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6018352.html#6018352

I am against MGM, but that's not really the issue under discussion. That issue is/was MRAs using MGM to have attack feminists. Which I am also against.


ETA: on that note, NobodyKnows: I am working on wider considerations in terms of work and power and class, and will come to them in time. But to respond on your points about circumcision:

I said critique, not criticise. They think these things are bad - well, great, but why? What is their analysis of the situations they find so wrong? Important questions like: what is being done? To whom? Why? By whom? Under whose say so? Whose interests does the situation serve? How? Whose interests does it go against? How? Etc. To be answered as fully and richly as possible.

I asked in what way were feminists blocking the ending of male circumcision, as it is the only thing that could justify the dragging of feminism into the matter. Otherwise it just comes to look like the most important thing is having a go at feminists, rather than considering and working on putting a stop to male circumision. And from this it comes to look as though putting a stop to male cirumcision is not an end in itself, but a means to the end of attacking feminism. That question was my clearest way of asking: what has feminism got to do with the matter? My post was the sketching out of the various answers I've come across, and responding to them.

By 'normal', I mean as The_Face_of_Boo put it: 'much of society take it as a standard natural procedure'. Many a cultural norm is contested, but that doesn't mean the contestation makes much difference or impact on the culture. People don't begin to question something 'normal' until they have cause to. It takes a shift in perspective, either come to in one's own way or circumstance, or for that new perspective to be succesfully communicated by someone else. It would be interesting to see how the numbers (pro/anti/no issue) of those who identify as feminist compare to the population at large on the matter of male circumcision, and to have similar numbers on FGM for comparison. Because feminists, as we all are, are socially and culturally embedded, and are primarily concerned with the status and experience of women qua women. So if men-at-large and medical practitioners don't raise the issue of MGM - and these are the people who, first and foremost, should have an idea if there's a problem with it - I don't see why it would be expected to occur to feminists-at-large, nor why anyone would single out feminists for not considering it.

I'm surprised you haven't gone for the imperialist-racist charge: FGM is something weird foreigners do, and they have funny ways and crazy beliefs, so it's bad. MGM is something we rational westerners do, and we have science and enlightenment, so it's fine.

And I still contend that, if there was a concerted feminist effort to put a stop to MGM, it would be met with anger, weary eye-rolling, derision, name calling and resentment by both society-at-large and many MRAs ("meddling feminists, it's a male body issue - what right do they have, it's up to the parents - how dare they interfere, it's political correctness gone mad" etc).

Exactly!

And furthermore, 21st century feminism is not a monolithic movement. It is a fragmented ideology with many competing schools of thought. The so-called "radical" feminists had their heyday in the late 60s and early 70s and they are by far the most angry.

Do I believe that men and women should have equal rights? Absolutely. Am I a feminist? Hell no. I've met too many modern feminists who espouse conspiracy theories about "the patriarchy" and believe that it's okay for women to be selfish just because they are women. I attribute the later to a sense of entitlement.

Can we for once define feminism right. If you are for equal rights, then you are a feminist, my friend.

You may be against "modern" or "radical" feminism or other branches, but in the core feminism is nothing but ensuring women are treated equally. It was a big issue before, maybe not so big nowadays, but it's still there.

And then there are lots of nutheads that turn people against feminism. But that's radical movements should NOT be mindlessly blended with feminism. That just shows how people are ignorant of the true issues and the whole movement itself. This line of thinking and divide is a perfect example why women had less rights in the first place!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd never posted anything about men's issues to WP or any other site until early March. I'd also never even heard the term "MRA" until LKL took a swipe at them, accusing them of keeping women out of the military.

(She's actually been the most interesting feminist to debate on WP so far, and the only one with the balls to go point-by-point and respond to rebuttals with counter-rebuttals.)

I replied to LKL that the entire local NCFM chapter had signed the petition to equalize draft registration, and they were the only people I'd known of either gender who were even aware of it.

The best that she could come up with was a list of mainline social conservatives, saying "These guys aren't feminists." So? She also presented as "actual MRA perspectives" three links from a site that described men's activists as:

"A loosely defined, but largely retrograde, collection of activists and internet talkers," who, unlike the (obviously-cooler) "original Men’s Movement, which was inspired by and heavily influenced by feminism" are "largely a reactionary movement." (And on, and on...)

Let me qualify my "MRA" credentials:

I'd never heard of A Voice For Men until Symantec blocked them as a "hate site."

I'll have to go back and look, but I don't think that I posted any negative comments about feminists until after starvingartist made a swipe against men's rights activists:

(She went on to demand that men treat women and women's activists as individuals.)

It was also after several feminists on this board ragged on "nice guys" for somehow asking too much in return. Hey, at least they asked in the first place. When women have wanted something from me, they've often painted is as a one-way moral obligation - like working three-times the amount that's actually needed to maintain infrastructure, while not bothering to make sure that schools work. By the way, women dominate education by 69%.

My total activity in the local NCFM branch: I've given them a couple of $20 donations over three years (which got me on the e-mail list), and I've read some of their material when it was interesting.

MRAs also aren't the only groups that I've spoken up for. The spectrum ranges from a lesbian couple that I knew who were suing my state for the right to get hitched to unjustly accused Catholic priests. (I'm straight enough to make Euclid jealous, and atheist.)

You chicks and man-chicks need to lay off of men. Then we can talk about treating you fairly.

feminism is female superiority and entitlements. equal rights is humanism and egalitarianism






the radicals have taken over the movement. "not all feminists are like that" excuse is common among feminists who sit by and not doing anything to remove the radicals






feminist actions like censorship, threats of violence, getting men fired, using false and bogus statistics, painting men as pedophiles, potential rapists, using shaming tactics, trying to label consensual sex as rape like they are doing in California, etc has done more to turn people off from feminism

did you ever consider that the reason the rest of us don't go through each of your posts and take them apart piece by piece is not because we "don't have enough balls", but because we feel it's not worth our time? your debating style is reactive, vitriolic, hostile, personally insulting, and rude. it doesn't exactly encourage lots of people to participate and put in the time and effort to try to reach you as a person. you make that impossible and the attempt unpleasant by your attitude.

Last edited by starvingartist on 20 Apr 2014, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the following is a post of mine from page 7 of this thread: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf255862-0-90.html

I don't know what's happening over there in US, but I've never seen such things you're speaking of over here. This sentence alone betrays your true intentions and emotions. Either way I'm not worried - you're fighting a loosing battle and not a very worthwhile one anyway. All I see is hatred and NO will whatsoever to engage in a constructive, rational discussion. You are no better than those "feminists" whatever they are in you own little head.

Actually after reading nonsense like this, which would've been more than acceptable some 50 years ago, I'm really happy that there are even radical feminists. Really, MRA does not deserve my empathy with people like you advocating for them. WHAT men problems? This is hilarious. You can't get laid? Oh boo hoo

Oxford dictionary: feminism - The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.


You're a radical! Keep on using these phrases and diminishing the importance of feminism even nowadays! Denying that women face pretty huge inequality these days. Admit at least one, I dare you

Threats of violence against women are so prevalent they don't even count anymore?!
Men should be fired in some instances! (and I have no problems admitting that some women are using this "feminism" to achieve their own even goals and sometimes this is unfair) Seriously, sexual harassment in workplace is insane. And you have NO clue (and clearly no ability to step into someone elses shoes) because you're a man.
Statistics is NOT bogus! How do you know that? Some groups may have used something skewed, sure, everyone does, but statistics are OVERWHELMING. You have to be an uneducated idiot to deny that. Go read some papers
The VAST majority of pedophiles, rapists are MEN. No one says that this implies that most men are like that, not at all. You have serious problems if you cannot distinguish. Please get some help.
Shaming has to be used when reason doesn't work.
Some women can cry rape, sure, it should be dealt with. But this is really NOT the issue. The sheer amount of legitimate rapes where a man doesnt get convicted is abhorring. You might not be one, but a lot of them are.

Analogously: Have you got any more of this, or do you want to stop at quacking plums?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjiz_a ... erview_fun



For shame, Mr Knows. For shame.

^^^^^^^^^^ Thumbs up

The vast majority of pedophiles and rapists WHO GET ADJUDICATED are men. Most women who commit those acts can walk around their daily lives with impunity and pride, knowing that they got away with doing things that a man would get castrated over.

Just speaking from personal experience here. I was sexually abused by many females in my youth. None of them will have to spend a single day in jail over what they did to me. Of course, a part of that has to do with my state's statute of limitations, but people are telling me that I should "not be angry" at any of these women, because "men probably taught them how to act like that". BS.

EDIT - I feel a need to clarify that nobody should be getting away with acts like these under any circumstances. I just strongly believe that all sex offenders should be treated equally, regardless of gender. And I hate it when people say that I am a "high and mighty misogynist" when I make statements like that.

Last edited by KagamineLen on 20 Apr 2014, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dictionary defintions are not manifestos





women's health get more money than men's

women dominate academia they outnumber men on college campuses

women initiate 70% of divorces

most custody cases of children goes to women

governments have government programs, ministries, and departments that exclusively caters to women

women get lighter sentences than men for the same crimes committed


etc




what about threats of violence, genocide, enslavement, mass murder against men on twitter which are labelled are label as jokes and dark humor by the feminists here on WP?


nobody here is saying sexual harassment in the workplace don't exist.




they are bogus because they don't present any peer reviewed research to back them up.








female pedophiles are also common.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8022861.stm








False Rape Allegations: An Assault On Justice

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

Although there is no doubt that false rape allegations occur, it is extremely difficult to determine what percentage of rape reports is intentionally false. This is due to many factors, including jurisdictional variation in definition, criteria, and reporting practices, as well as the fact that not all rapes are reported. Although the FBI had set 8% as the average rate of false (actually, unfounded) accusations during the late 1990s, there is remarkable variation in the estimates of false allegations of rape found in the literature (Kanin, 1994; Epstein, 2005). A review of those studies on false rape accusations conducted between 1968 and 2005 showed a percentage range from 1-90% (Rumney, 2006).

Miss, an honest citation would have been:



My "stated opinion" was "I'll respond to this and the next one together," which I did. That response rebutted just the sort of skewed statistics that cannotthinkoff likes to trivialize.

It doesn't matter if the statistics are "overwhelming," as she put it. In a free, fair country, you can only accuse people of things that they actually did. It doesn't matter if they're guilty of something else, or a hundred other things; they still have the right to defense (both legal and reputational) against any charge that you level against them.

It's been claimed here that feminists are egalitarian, and concerned about freedoms and rights. Deny that key right, and you will eventually have destroyed them all - including for yourself.



Yes, and you have spent quite a bit of time on my posts. In fact, I'm flattered

You say women rape as much as men do? :> Maybe more?

Sorry you had to go through this, I am definitely not justifying women sexual offenders nor I am denying their existence. But these are rather rare pathological cases.