Why DO males take the responsibility for initiating?

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mrquestor
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16 Apr 2014, 6:16 pm

Hopper wrote:
mrquestor wrote:
Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to. Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature. care to disagree?


Yes.
so you deny men and women are born with biologically programmed forms of of what's sexually attractive to them that societies try to influence and control? And you deny that gradually countries morals change, so much so.that In two hundred years people struggle to see why there ancestors believed in those philosophies?



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16 Apr 2014, 6:44 pm

mrquestor wrote:
Hopper wrote:
mrquestor wrote:
Why are men responsible for initiating contact?. Because human biology dictates men are attracted to non aggressive women who submit to their interest and women are attracted to men powerful and succesfull enough that they'll give up their independent heart to. Someday in the future this society will be gone and so will the promotion of "strong modern women" and all other concepts our society uses to obscure uncomfortable facts of nature. care to disagree?


Yes.
so you deny men and women are born with with biologically programmed forms of of what's sexually attractive to them that societies try to influence and control?


I deny that men and women are uniformly 'programmed' with a particular sexual attraction. The varieties of sexual attraction and behaviour and thought members of either gender have displayed throughout time and culture makes the idea of considering such a thing ridiculous.

Further, I deny that the conflict is between nature and society. It is between nature and nature, or perhaps rather one concept of nature and another. It is conflict within ourselves. No animal can go against its natural endowments, except by other natural endowments. No animal can step outside its nature, by definition. Humans are no different.

Biology dictates that humans cannot breathe unaided underwater. You can change all the laws you want, you can promote it all you want, it won't make humans able to breathe unaided underwater.

But apparent 'biological dictates' regarding our social being are gone against all the time, up and down the centuries. Right now, people all around the world are going against the 'biological dictates' you and many others demand of them. Sure, plenty are apparently comforming to them, but plenty aren't. If they were such 'biological dictates' as you propose, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, just as you won't ever have a serious, drawn out conversation as to whether or not humans can breathe unaided underwater.

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And you deny that gradually countries morals change, so much so.that In two hundred years people struggle to see why there ancestors believed in those philosophies?


Not at all. I was disagreeing with the assumption of your proposition. It seems to me you also do.


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mrquestor
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16 Apr 2014, 7:36 pm

So as an aside are you denying people are born with a same sex attraction?. Human sexuality is pretty much the same world over . Varrying Different cultures have come up with different strategies and concepts for how people should apply it. Those that start applying unhealthy strategies such as ours will experience increasing frustration and chaos until the blowback replaces the culture with a better way or they dissapear. Meanwhile islamic countries if they hold to their values will continue existing for centuries.



infilove
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16 Apr 2014, 7:46 pm

I've wondered that for years but I have a legit answer for you my friend.
It is society. Society has molded people into believing this is acceptable and in truth it is not. Society has many men afraid of changing this in fear of being ridiculed. This society perception is believed is caused by the early days when women were mistreated and women retaliated to try to rectified the situation, now it has gone to the other extreme and actually it has been like that for decades now. I think what bugs you about this is the fact that you are more aware of things, probably from struggles and different outlook due to be ASD and you can actually see a deeper issue about this then what appears on the surface. There are actually groups out there that are trying to correct this. Some of these groups are "Masculinest", (I not a big fan of this group though and feel they are too aggressive and somewhat out of line). In truth men are very emotional and we are taught to suppress our emotions in order to "be a man." What I find interesting is that I actually know some women who think this social pressure they put on men is ridiculous as well! This can however be changed by speaking out. Write a blog or joins some groups that are trying to get the word out on this. I feel like if this is corrected there will be a more balance in regards to male/female and bring more peace into the word which could help ease other issue like the economy and political corruption.


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Eureka13
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16 Apr 2014, 7:47 pm

Look at it this way: you can either do the choosing, or wait to be chosen. Which sounds like more fun?

In my time on dating sites, I've initiated contact as often as the men have when the man was a reasonably decent match with me. Just because most of the men who *do* initiate contact with me have obviously not bothered to read my profile and/or were scammers doesn't mean it doesn't work both ways.

In real life, I've had only one serious relationship that *I* didn't initiate. Over my lifetime I've also approached plenty of guys who turned me down....and a few of them even told me it was because I didn't wait for them to approach me, like a good little woman should. :roll:



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16 Apr 2014, 8:07 pm

mrquestor wrote:
So as an aside are you denying people are born with a same sex attraction?.


I don't know. I do know I don't experience what I find sexually attractive/appealing as a choice, be it in terms of a partner or acts. Where and how that sexuality was formed is another matter.

I also know that my experience of my sexuality is not the one commonly ascribed to men as 'natural'.

Quote:
Human sexuality is pretty much the same world over . Varrying Different cultures have come up with different strategies and concepts for how people should apply it.


Physically it is obviously going to run up against certain limits, but psychologically I think it has a pretty wide scope. Not just what turns people on, but why it does.

Sure, different cultures have tried to understand it and police it in different ways - but no culture is singular through and through. There is always dissent, and cultures shift and change over time, though some rituals and expectations stick long after the reason for their development has been forgotten.

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Those that start applying unhealthy strategies such as ours will experience increasing frustration and chaos until the blowback replaces the culture with a better way or they dissapear. Meanwhile islamic countries if they hold to their values will continue existing for centuries.


As I understand it, you would say the frustration comes from our going against our nature. I have outlined above as to why that is impossible. I think any frustrations come from many other sources, as well as our individual natures being pluralistic and plastic and often contradictory and open to influences outside ourselves, and end up refracted through (and informing) sexuality issues and gender strife.

Islamic countries impose their values through a variety of methods, with often brutal consequences for those who disobey. And one should not assume that the public face of a culture matches the private one.


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


Last edited by Hopper on 16 Apr 2014, 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

infilove
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16 Apr 2014, 8:08 pm

I've wondered that for years but I have a pretty legit answer for you on this topic.
Eventhough both men and women have unique genetic and inherit programming, the main cause of today's standards and pressure on men to initiate on many things such as relationships, dating, and commitment, is because of society. Society has molded people into believing that it is acceptable and unacceptable to be certain ways for the approval of the opposite sex. Furthermore, part of the script that society has put on men also includes the fear put on men to change this. This script has been created in the early days when women where mistreated. Women eventually took a stance against that and retaliated for equal rights. Women eventually had more rights and regained power but it unfortunately swung somewhat to the other extreme and stayed that way for several decades now.

I think what really bugs you about this is the fact that you noticing the deeper depth of this issue. You are more aware of things, probably from struggles and a different outlook due to be ASD. Men in truth are very emotional beings and they are forced to suppress these emotions in order be accepted as a "man". The fear of changing this is so ingrained that men judge other men for acting or not acting this way. This causes women to think men are emotionally shallow and don't care when at the same time they are told that being emotional is not attractive. This suppression forces power away from men under the name of them believing they have the power due to initiating things when really the power is brought to women to be the chooser. This creates a sense of un-attainability to women and the opposite in the women's view. Men are accused as being wrong or shallow for being attracted to women's physique often caused by the perspective of un-attainability. As a result women think men are being shallow when in truth women want the same thing as men do. But unfortunately this off-kilter makes certain things that men try to do from the heart un-flattering. Men are looked as shallow and unable to emotionally when in truth they are desiring the opposite. I think it's a real problem.

Fortunately, there are actually groups out there that are trying to correct this. Some of these groups are "Masculinest", (I not a big fan of this group though and feel they are too aggressive and somewhat out of line). In truth men are very emotional and we are taught to suppress our emotions in order to "be a man." What I find interesting is that I actually know some women who think this social pressure they put on men is ridiculous as well! This can however be changed by speaking out. Write a blog or joins some groups that are trying to get the word out on this. I feel like if this is corrected there will be a more balance in regards to male/female and bring more peace into the word which could help ease other issue like the economy and political corruption.


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Aaendi
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16 Apr 2014, 8:26 pm

Most of the time I don't even bother initiating conversations, unless she smiles at me. I don't understand how PUAs are capable of approaching every girl they see, and get them to have sex with them.



mrquestor
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16 Apr 2014, 9:40 pm

Aaendi wrote:
Most of the time I don't even bother initiating conversations, unless she smiles at me. I don't understand how PUAs are capable of approaching every girl they see, and get them to have sex with them.
because they follow and understand the rules of nature. Women no matter how smart or independent will submit to a strong confident man who knows the game . Feminists, homosexuals and other groups in society simply confuse natural young men and women who should be learning the facts of life.



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16 Apr 2014, 9:46 pm

FMX wrote:
[ Edited title. Revised question here: https://www.wrongplanet.net/postp6013184.html#6013184 ]

There is something I've never understood about heterosexual dating. It's something that everyone seems to accept as "just the way things are", but I don't understand why - and I'd like to. It's kind of hard to formulate as a precise question, especially one that doesn't come across as a rant or completely childish, but here's my best shot at it:

Why do males generally put in all the effort in initiating relationships?

I constantly read about the man having to "attract" the woman, to actually initiate contact and ask her out, to keep her interested in the early stages and so on. It's perceived as completely normal for the man to, basically, sell himself to the woman and for the woman to choose from competing sellers.[1] There are already many threads about this, so I don't want to go into too much detail - hopefully you get what I'm talking about.

What I'd like to know is why this is the case or, more specifically, why men go along with this. For once, it's male behaviour that puzzles me! I understand why women go along with it - less effort is easier than more effort and they can, apparently, get away with it.[2] If I could - I would, too!

I get the strong impression that males are just more desperate for relationships than females. (And I am talking about relationships here, not just sex.) Are they actually? If so, why? If not, why do they act as if they are?

This somewhat makes sense on online dating sites, because there the males outnumber females 2:1 (at least). But it makes no sense as a general attitude, since the number of single men and single women must be approximately equal. So while there appears to be a strong supply-demand imbalance I can't see how there could actually be one.[3] So why don't things look more balanced, with each gender putting in roughly the same amount of effort and treating each other more equally? Are women just that much happier to stay single than men? What am I missing here?

Please note: this is a serious question, not a rant. I'm looking for insight, not rhetoric.

[1] Yes, I understand that there are exceptions. I'm talking about overall trends here and I think few would argue that this is not the case in general.
[2] Yes, I know that women also have dating problems. This is not another "who has it easier?" thread.
[3] It's theoretically possible that more women than men are in relationships with the same sex, but all the data I can find shows that homosexuality is more prevalent among males.


Men want sex. Women want love.

Women are the employers. Men are the employees. Sex is the wage women pay men for agreeing to get into a relationship.

Duhhhhh!



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16 Apr 2014, 9:46 pm

Hopper wrote:
As I understand it, you would say the frustration comes from our going against our nature. I have outlined above as to why that is impossible. I think any frustrations come from many other sources, as well as our individual natures being pluralistic and plastic and often contradictory and open to influences outside ourselves, and end up refracted through (and informing) sexuality issues and gender strife.

Islamic countries impose their values through a variety of methods, with often brutal consequences for those who disobey. And one should not assume that the public face of a culture matches the private one.


Bravo!! !

I agree, sir.

Please continue sewing the board with your wisdom.

:D


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mrquestor
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16 Apr 2014, 9:47 pm

@infilove. Yes Ive heard of masculinism . I disagree that men should express open emotion to women. A major point of theirs and personal experience is that its a quick turn off for many women. So both men and women pursuing relationships should be reminded of things like that. Some women may think theyre okay with it but ive observed they quickly remember otherwise to their displeasure



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16 Apr 2014, 10:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Men want sex. Women want love.

Women are the employers. Men are the employees. Sex is the wage women pay men for agreeing to get into a relationship.

Duhhhhh!

Someone please kill off all people who think like this. Seriously, just die.



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17 Apr 2014, 3:13 am

marshall wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Men want sex. Women want love.

Women are the employers. Men are the employees. Sex is the wage women pay men for agreeing to get into a relationship.

Duhhhhh!

Someone please kill off all people who think like this. Seriously, just die.


Agreed. "A real man with confidence is not afraid of showing off his hard dick to every woman he finds, hardy-har-har!"



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17 Apr 2014, 3:51 am

starvingartist wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
But, for sake of argument, I'll accept your paradigm - that men approach, and women don't. So, a man has to make the approach and possibly be rejected. Whereas the woman gets all dolled up, goes out, and no-one notices or approaches her. That, too, is rejection. It sucks either way.


That's true but it can be solved by appereance changes, there are plenty of stories by women confirm that:
http://www.quora.com/Physical-Appearanc ... attractive

A lot of them felt invisible before the change.


Do you know Kirsten Lindsmith, that girl on the WP Homepage? She had a very similar experience as those stories on the Quora page, her dating life was zero (because boys assumed she's lesbian) when she was wearing tomboyish-looking things but it significantly improved after appearance changes.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/article425.html


hear that girls? all you've got to do is completely change your appearance and learn to dress and behave like someone you're not, and then random strange men will find you attractive--yay! i'll get right on that. :roll:


It's sad, isn't it? Some girls looked more natural and cuter to me in the "before" pics on the Quora page, this fake eyebrow trend is pretty disturbing but it's becoming the norm :-/.

Appearance changes affect guys' dating chances greatly too.

Of course, if you have a horrible personality, no appearance change would help you for long-terms but I am assuming the minimum default is nice personality.



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17 Apr 2014, 4:46 am

Eureka13 wrote:
Over my lifetime I've also approached plenty of guys who turned me down....and a few of them even told me it was because I didn't wait for them to approach me, like a good little woman should. :roll:


Wow, seriously? 8O You had guys say to you "well, I wanted to go out with you, but now that you're asking me out... NO!" ? If so, I still have much to learn about just how messed up people can be!

marshall wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Men want sex. Women want love.

Women are the employers. Men are the employees. Sex is the wage women pay men for agreeing to get into a relationship.

Duhhhhh!

Someone please kill off all people who think like this. Seriously, just die.


Yes! I struggle to respect anyone (male or female) who thinks that this is how things should be or even "OK". It seems that many people do, but when I say so, people tell me I'm cynical. At least I'm not the only one!

I utterly resent this attitude and I reject this system. I will not be a woman's "employee". If that means I remain single all my life - so be it. My self-respect is far more valuable to me than sex. I also resent and reject the (closely related) idea that women "give" sex and men "get" sex.


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