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zer0netgain
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19 Oct 2014, 9:09 am

The_Walrus wrote:
- the building was on fire
- metals thermally expand
- the building fell down

Therefore, with my current knowledge it seems wholly plausible that the thermal expansion of the steel in the building, caused by the heat of the fires, itself caused the building to collapse.


Except that it is conclusively proven there were no fires burning hot enough to do just that. For fire to be hot enough to do that kind of damage, nobody on those floors would have been alive. The color of the smoke coming out of both towers establishes a SMOLDERING (cool) fire, not a hot one, and photographs show survivors looking out of the holes created in the towers. Nobody could have survived the heat needed to damage the metal in the building.

This is why engineers AROUND THE WORLD condemned the 9/11 investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center as a "half-baked farce." None of the standard tests one would do in a collapse investigation were followed. There is no way to prove the government's theory in how the buildings collapsed based on the evidence that was gathered and the testing that was performed.



ZenDen
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19 Oct 2014, 9:10 am

"The_Walrus wrote:
- the building was on fire
- metals thermally expand
- the building fell down

Therefore, with my current knowledge it seems wholly plausible that the thermal expansion of the steel in the building, caused by the heat of the fires, itself caused the building to collapse."


Well I guess your brilliant analysis makes you the big winner then.

And your childish refusal to learn about the things you try to explain
and discuss means you will always have this honor.

Congratulations.

I'll try to debate those using supported facts in future discussions.



The_Walrus
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19 Oct 2014, 3:07 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
- the building was on fire
- metals thermally expand
- the building fell down

Therefore, with my current knowledge it seems wholly plausible that the thermal expansion of the steel in the building, caused by the heat of the fires, itself caused the building to collapse.


Except that it is conclusively proven there were no fires burning hot enough to do just that. For fire to be hot enough to do that kind of damage, nobody on those floors would have been alive. The color of the smoke coming out of both towers establishes a SMOLDERING (cool) fire, not a hot one, and photographs show survivors looking out of the holes created in the towers.

There were no survivors in Tower 7, the tower being discussed, because it had already been evacuated...

Also, thermal expansion is not "melting", nor is melting necessary for steel to lose strength and the fires didn't cause the collapse of 1+2 straight away. The jet fuel just ignited a number of fires that burned for a while - those caused the collapse. Calls from trapped workers certainly indicate that it was verrrry hot in there, too hot for them to consider an escape.

The fact remains that, whilst we may not know exactly why the building fell down with 100% certainty, no plausible alternative hypothesis has been presented (that is, none that requires an outside agent or a controlled demolition). The bones of contention are whether fireproofing loss or the plane impact were strictly necessary for the building to come down - multiple independent reports (for example conclude that the fires alone would be enough.



886
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22 Oct 2014, 6:33 am

Arran wrote:
Did the 9/11 truth movement die or did it offload its excess baggage?

It's undeniable that the 9/11 truth movement is much quieter and less prominent than it was around 7 or 8 years ago, but the theory I have is that it attracted far too many people who were just curious inquirers or those who were of no use and credibility because they lacked any real knowledge or experience that could be used to reveal the truth and debunk the official story. I'm only interested in people being in the 9/11 truth movement if they have some useful knowledge to offer - like controlled demolition specialists; civil engineers; or airline pilots. Over the years the 'dead wood' in the movement has fallen away but critics of 9/11 truth have used this to create a misleading message that the 9/11 truth movement has died. I also think that intelligence services were behind certain sections of the 9/11 truth movement in order to create misinformation and decoys that would help to reduce credibility of genuine factions of the movement and destroy the trust by the public. My experience of 9/11 truth conventions and local meetups is that most are a complete waste of time and are probably detrimental to the cause. There was a local 9/11 truth group but I left after finding that none of its members had any useful knowledge or experience and just tended to believe sensationalist junk like Loose Change.


I think social media played a role in the movement's downfall. When I was in high school I was very interested in the 9/11 truth movement. As I grew older and got more involved with social media, I noticed a large portion of 9/11 truthers had the same approach. They felt EVERYTHING was a conspiracy - every government historical event was a cover-up. They believed in the illuminati (lol.) A lot use psychedelic drugs. The culture of 9/11 truthers was very poor.


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zer0netgain
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23 Oct 2014, 4:28 am

886 wrote:
The culture of 9/11 truthers was very poor.


And even if that is not so, it would be not be difficult for their detractors to portray them as such.

Hire a bunch of people to post online as various people to spew garbage that makes the desired group look like morons.

Hell, the Tea Party was consistently derided in the media while Occupy Wall Street was treated like the second coming of Christ...even though the Tea Party rarely had anything negative to say about how they conducted themselves and OWS were pretty much a bunch of anarchists leaving behind a trail of destruction wherever they went.

Media perception is everything.



886
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24 Oct 2014, 5:28 am

zer0netgain wrote:
886 wrote:
The culture of 9/11 truthers was very poor.


And even if that is not so, it would be not be difficult for their detractors to portray them as such.

Hire a bunch of people to post online as various people to spew garbage that makes the desired group look like morons.

Hell, the Tea Party was consistently derided in the media while Occupy Wall Street was treated like the second coming of Christ...even though the Tea Party rarely had anything negative to say about how they conducted themselves and OWS were pretty much a bunch of anarchists leaving behind a trail of destruction wherever they went.

Media perception is everything.


You could probably take any culture or group of people online (including, unfortunately, autism) and label them with something harmful. So I see your point. 9/11 truth didn't really have much ground to it outside of the internet though, did it? I personally don't remember them having any sort of formal gathering or any legitimate protest.


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24 Oct 2014, 6:23 am

zer0netgain wrote:
ile Occupy Wall Street was treated like the second coming of Christ...even though the Tea Party rarely had anything negative to say about how they conducted themselves and OWS were pretty much a bunch of anarchists leaving behind a trail of destruction wherever they went.
Media perception is everything.

??? OWS had about 3% bums * and that is what the media focased on. Many were low level brokers! Also, when camping out one looks ragged and that is what the media focused on.
Of course the media was given orders to destroy OWS because it was threatening their corporate masters.
As for 911 truthers I think their evidence is unconvinceing. However, after the government shredded the constitution by removing our right to a trial, I can believe they are capable of anything.
I think attacking the government is silly. It is like attacking the puppet (government ) as the puppeteer (international corporations, banks etc) laughs.
* Every organization has at least 3% unsavoury members.


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Last edited by wittgenstein on 24 Oct 2014, 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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24 Oct 2014, 6:29 am

The irony is that the tea party began as a reaction to the Wall Street criminals. It was grass roots! Unfortunately, it was taken over by big money (Koch brothers ) and now represents the interests of international corporations (less corporate tax, less regulation of Wall Street etc).


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I went up over 50 feet!
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My debate style is calm and deadly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-230v_ecAcM