Help! I'm coming to a crisis within the church

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Meistersinger
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28 Jun 2014, 4:02 am

I was just informed this evening by members of my church choir that our current music director was forced to resign, effective immediately. I have not been able to get any information, from anybody I've talked to so far in the congregation on why he was forced to resign, other than it was an internal matter. This guy has only been with the church since November. The music program was just beginning to gel and take off, after many years of neglect by the congregation and the church staff. It currently has my stomach churning bile, as well as causing me a panic attack.

To make matters worse, this comes at a time when my personal struggles with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's stance on openly gay clerics and the performance of same sex marriages has me seriously questioning the theology of the ELCA's leadership. If anything, since I was raised in the Churches Of God--General Conference (formerly the Church of a God in North America), I was always taught, as a child, and when I went through catechism in the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, that Scripture was inerrant and sancrosanct, with said ideas regarding scripture being further affirmed by the unaltered Augsburg Confession, the Book of Concord, and most of the writings of Martin Luther. I've also said in the past that while scripture is inerrant and it is the literal Word of God, man has screwed up that message.

This leads me to a dilemma, since I've have gone through the excesses of Arminianism and Calvinism as a child. I was told by more than one person in the church I grew up in I was going to Hell for listening to the music of Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms, rather than Lowell Mason and Fanny Crosby hymnody. I mentioned that in a different thread some time ago. Catholicism was never an option, since I only owe tribute to the Triune God, and not the Pope. Anglicanism is also not an option, as the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States, in my opinion, is even more screwed up theologically than the ELCA.

The choir has a meeting with the president of church council on Sunday. If past dealings with council are any indication (the church had a brother/sister team that grew up in this congregation that council forced out 10 years ago, in the same way the current music director was forced out), which was to give a non-answer answer, I'm gone, and this time permanently, from this congregation. This matter is causing me so much distress because 1) I've been in this choir intermittently, since 1977, and 2) This congregation has been good to me in the past. If this is what happens when a congregation relocates, and grows to fast, and abandons the members that took a giant leap 20 years ago to relocate, rather than be shut down by the synod, then that congregation deserves to lose membership and be eventually shut down.



zer0netgain
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28 Jun 2014, 6:56 am

1. Go back to what the Bible actually says on any given topic. The doctrines of many denominations are so whacked because you can read the Bible and see they are either taking select scriptures and using them out of context with what all the Bible says on the matter or they are making stuff up that the Bible actually teaches the opposite on when you look at all the Bible has to say.

2. Walk away, respectfully, from any church that embraces doctrine that clearly violates God's Word. Gay marriage and gay ministers are CLEARLY prohibited, and there is no way to distort the Bible to uphold those practices. Vote with your feet. I know of entire churches that would walk out of their conference association if the leadership embraced un-Biblical policies.

3. As far as what happened to the music minister, it's frustrating to not know, but it's not your place to know unless the person in question chooses to tell you. It could have been a personal/professional matter between him and the leadership or it could be as bad as him doing something he was not supposed to be doing (and I mean one of the big things you don't do). Gossiping in the church is a big problem, so it's something everyone has to do...learn to mind their own business rather than NEED TO KNOW the latest news on other members of the congregation.



naturalplastic
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28 Jun 2014, 7:06 am

I wish they would spread the word: that listening to Brahms, and Beethoven will send you "to Hell"! That would guarantee that teenagers WOULD listen to it, and to other classical music!

Sorry.

I know that its off topic.

Can't really comment on your crises, but I cant help being amused that in a world of gangsta rap that anyone would worry about young people listening to Beethoven, and Brahms.



TallyMan
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28 Jun 2014, 8:32 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Can't really comment on your crises, but I cant help being amused that in a world of gangsta rap that anyone would worry about young people listening to Beethoven, and Brahms.


Yes, as "out there" goes, worrying about the music of the most respected classical composers is plain crazy.

No idea what to suggest about the church. From what I've heard, such places are rife with underhand nastiness and seething resentment amongst the "faithful".

Maybe the music director was caught listening to Beethoven's Pastoral symphony on his iPod. Oh the horror!


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28 Jun 2014, 8:42 am

Maybe not what are looking for, but you might find this link helpful.



Raptor
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28 Jun 2014, 8:58 am

I'm curious to know what the rationale is behind going to hell for listening to Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms.


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TallyMan
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28 Jun 2014, 9:12 am

Raptor wrote:
I'm curious to know what the rationale is behind going to hell for listening to Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms.


Classical music is the work of the devil I tell you! Go wash your mouth out with carbolic soap then say 100 hail marys and repent your blasphemy!

I read an article this morning about fundamentalist Muslims saying ALL music is a sin. Seems some Christians hold the same extreme views.


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28 Jun 2014, 9:43 am

TallyMan wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'm curious to know what the rationale is behind going to hell for listening to Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms.


Classical music is the work of the devil I tell you! Go wash your mouth out with carbolic soap then say 100 hail marys and repent your blasphemy!

I read an article this morning about fundamentalist Muslims saying ALL music is a sin. Seems some Christians hold the same extreme views.


Maybe if you play it backwards there are messages from the devil.....


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28 Jun 2014, 10:39 am

That's Led Zepplin's Stairway to Heavenand the Beatles tune Revolution #9.


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Meistersinger
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28 Jun 2014, 11:25 am

TallyMan wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Can't really comment on your crises, but I cant help being amused that in a world of gangsta rap that anyone would worry about young people listening to Beethoven, and Brahms.


Yes, as "out there" goes, worrying about the music of the most respected classical composers is plain crazy.

No idea what to suggest about the church. From what I've heard, such places are rife with underhand nastiness and seething resentment amongst the "faithful".

Maybe the music director was caught listening to Beethoven's Pastoral symphony on his iPod. Oh the horror!


Problem is, most of the congregation is not aware of this resignation. I wasn't aware until I got a text message from the choir's alto soloist yesterday, asking if I was going to be in church this Sunday. When I called her back is when I found out about the resignation.

This is a congregation where the older members are of the Law and Gospel mindset. They are used to preaching Law to the errant in the congregation who will not submit to the Word, and Gospel to those that admit their sin and submit to the Word. The assistant pastor and the youth pastor have already admitted they will perform same-sex marriages for whoever wants to be married in this congregation, without counseling the bride and groom. This attitude, is one of the reasons the now former Senior pastor left for a new pastorate in Chattanooga, TN. Since he left, attendance has been dwindling at all four services. I can see a schism coming right now in this congregation. It has been acting like 4 separate congregations for some time: the traditionalists versus the praise band crowd, with the traditionalists being given the short shrift.



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28 Jun 2014, 12:50 pm

According to most Christians I have encountered any music that doesn't glorify god is evil. Most of the churches I used to go to were fairly radical christians.


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Meistersinger
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28 Jun 2014, 6:06 pm

I just got off the phone with my choir's soprano soloist, who also happens to be on the worship and music committee at the church. She had just finished speaking with the now former organist, and he asked that no mention of his forced resignation be made by the choir, and let the leadership make the announcement, so as not to jeopardize the letter of recommendation he is to receive as part of his separation. Since his resignation, she says, he has received two calls from other congregations to interview for their music position.

What bothers me, as well as her, is that this gentleman just received his performance evaluation, and it was an excellent evaluation. The only thing that might have caused this resignation would be the council decided not to renew his contract, due to lack of funds. Collections have been down, as is usual for the summer. What bugs me is that they just hired back the former preschool director, hired a part-time deaconess to handle the duties of a visitation pastor, and 3 supply pastors to fill in when the pastors or the deaconess is not available.

It just seems that council wants to eliminate us traditionalists, in favor of praise bands. I'm still considering whether remain in this congregation, given the current climate and teachings of the ELCA, a denomination that is losing membership and congregations to LCMS, WELS, LCMC, etc. faster than the other mainline denominations (United Methodists, UCC, Presbyterian, Episcopal) combined.



Meistersinger
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20 Jul 2014, 1:34 am

I went to visit an elderly couple that used to be in my former church choir last evening. They quit the choir because he is in pretty poor health (we also used to sing in the same county ecumenical choir also), and is still undergoing both radiation and chemotherapy. They have now also decided to do the same thing I have done, and walked out of this congregation, never to return. He and his wife have been in contact with the former music director. It turns out that the pastor for faith formation at my former church was responsible for his termination. While no one can prove it, she may also be responsible for the former senior pastor's resignation and his taking a new call in Chattanooga, TN. The faith formation pastor's husband is also a pastor, and is currently the evangelism consultant to the bishop. I'm beginning to think there's collusion going on between this couple, the bishop, and this congregation. This congregation got rid of a brother/sister team that grew up in this congregation and served as co-music directors for many years, until about 9 years ago, when the parish administrator and congregation president told the woman that was co-director to not let the door hit her in the arse on the way out, lest she be charged with destruction of property.

Fortunately, this woman's husband is an attorney, whose practice is limited to labor law. You can probably guess what his next move was. If you answered he sued the church, you're right! I found out last night from this elderly couple, this attorney won the case. Now this attorney has been my attorney for years. I've known him for 25 years, and his wife and brother-in-law for even longer than that. His wife's and brother-in-law's family are very decent people, very scrupulous and honest. Her parent's would have never let him marry this guy if he didn't have the same traits as them. Several other attorneys I know (some of which are distant relatives), have told me that this guy is one the few honest attorneys in the area.

I did hear the former music director has been offered a position in 4 separate churches: 2 of them in Harrisburg (where he currently lives), one in the southern part of York County, and one with the oldest UCC congregation in York city (this church was founded in 1742). I also know, from speaking with the director of the county ecumenical choir, who I saw Friday night at the local supermarket, that this gentleman filed a complaint with the local chapter of the American Guild of Organists against his former employer. They told me next time they talked to the former music director, he should contact my attorney and sue the living daylights of of this congregation.

When the couple I visited last night asked if this gentleman were to take the position at the UCC church (which they were members of until about 20 years ago, when they left because of a less than scrupulous pastor.), if I would join that church, I said I doubt it, since the UCC is even more screwed up, in my opinion, that the ELCA. I told them, as far as I'm concerned, the United Methodist church right now is the only main line denomination that still have their heads screwed on straight. They were a bit disappointed, but they understood where I was coming from. I just might pay a visit to that UCC congregation, even though I have issues with the UCC in General, the national church does not impose their conditions on the local congregations, according to the UCC website. I might have the pastor come around to my place, and give him the same grilling I gave the pastor of the one United Methodist congregation that I attended 3 weeks ago when I was checking them out, after an absence of 40 years.



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20 Jul 2014, 3:31 am

The OP might like this. It's about a priest who happens to be the only good guy in his parish, and whether his legitimately good works could justify the institutions place in Ireland, despite all of the evil s**t the Church has done.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGM5rq_vX4U[/youtube]



Thom_Fuleri
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20 Jul 2014, 5:19 pm

This church is nuttier than a fruitcake with extra pecans. Don't believe a word they tell you. Find another congregation that sails a little closer to sanity and leave this lot to their demented ravings.



Meistersinger
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29 Jul 2014, 8:50 pm

And the controversy with this congregation continues...

I just heard this evening the reason the music director was asked to resign. He was terminated the day after the North Carolina Boy Choir gave a performance at the church. Had congregation council and the pastors would have said there was something allegedly inappropriate going on with this group and the music director, and the music director put the congregation in a legally tenuous position, there probably would not have been such a nasty backlash from the choir. This guy had everyone snowed.

However, the damage has already been done. I will not be returning to this congregation. To quote Martin Luther, in his defense given to the Holy See at the Diet of Worms: "To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I can do nothing else, except by the grace of God."