People letting themselves go once in a relationship.

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CommanderKeen
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22 Aug 2014, 9:12 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
And if it is genes, since at least on a subconscious level attraction is based on gene selection, if a fat person gets fit, is that genetic fraud?
After all, many people are thin without trying to be thin.


If a fat person gets fit that means that his/her "strong will" gene is strong; so no, it's not genetic fraud, it is genetic compensation. :p

What if they used drugs to lose weight instead of willpower?

then they'll gain weight back quick once they get off the pills, unless they're taking steroids and stay on them.



Janissy
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22 Aug 2014, 10:11 am

What an interesting thread. Somewhere along the way it turned into a thread for diet and exercise tips (which is an improvement over how the thread started IMO).

Here is a guy who I think has good advice and he brings the science.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/catego ... ndamentals

relevent to cafeaulait wondering why a fixed equation of calories/energy expenditure doesn't lead to a fixed amount of weight loss:

Quote:
When you lose weight, BMR/RMR goes down. Some of this is simply due to reduced body weight (a smaller body burns less calories) but there is also an adaptive component due to changes in hormones like leptin, insulin, nervous system output and thyroid hormones (this topic is discussed in detail in both The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook and A Guide to Flexible Dieting). This lessens the actual deficit that is being created because the previously estimated maintenance value is no longer correct (to keep losing fat at anywhere near the same rate, calories have to be reduced further to take this reduction into account).
The Thermic effect of food is related directly to the amount of food that you?re eating. Now, TEF is usually rough-estimated at 10% of total food intake (this is just an average value for average diets). But that means that if you reduce food intake by 500 cal/day, you will be burning 50 cal/day less via TEF. Your previous maintenance of 2500 has already been reduced to 2450 cal/day. So the assumption of a static 2500 cal/day maintenance is already made invalid simply by the act of reducing food intake (albeit slightly).
Ok, you say, what if I add exercise instead? Well, some research has found that (and this usually happens in older people) excessive amounts of activity burned during exercise causes people to move around less later in the day. For example, say you put yourself through 500 calories of hard activity but, due to fatigue, you sit on the couch more later that night, burning 300 calories less than you expended before training. The supposed 500 calorie deficit you?re creating is really only 200 calories because your SPA/NEAT has adjusted itself. You might expect one pound per week fat loss but the deficit is actually less than half of that (200 cal/day * 7 days = 1,400 calories = 0.4 pounds fat per week)


I own this guy's Ketogenic Diet Book and have found it invaluable. He also has excellent exercise advice because he realizes that what works for the trained 25 year old man does not work for the out-of-shape middle aged woman. He splits demographics so anyone can find advice right for them in particular. In fact, one of his pet peeves is trained 25 year old men (in their capacity as personal trainers) trying to fit their advice to the overweight and out-of-shape, not realizing that you must do more than simply adjust reps downwards.



tarantella64
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22 Aug 2014, 11:57 am

It's also worth remembering that there's a whole lot we just plain do not know about metabolism. And probably a whole lot we don't even know we don't know.



Yuzu
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22 Aug 2014, 1:26 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:
This is what I ate today:
A brown bun (80 grams) with salmonfilet on it (350 calories total)
A few artichokes (50 cal)
80 grams of wheat spaghetti with 75 grams of carbonara sauce and veggies (550 cal)
A chocolate cookie(200 cal)
An apple (50 cal)
A diet coke (0 cal)

It doesn't make sense to think I won't lose weight but for some reason I think I wont. Also when I've eaten a lot in the evening I'm afraid my body will store it as fat and thay it's no use to cut calories.


I'd eat more veggies and fruits especially if they're so cheap in the Netherlands like you said.
I'd try to eat a big salad with a lot of leafy green vegetables everyday and I'd replace a cookie with a banana with a little bit of nutella.
When I stopped eating wheat flour products and refined sugar it was easy for me to drop weight. Try eating brown rice and potatoes(not fried) instead of bread and pasta.



Cafeaulait
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22 Aug 2014, 2:51 pm

Yuzu wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
This is what I ate today:
A brown bun (80 grams) with salmonfilet on it (350 calories total)
A few artichokes (50 cal)
80 grams of wheat spaghetti with 75 grams of carbonara sauce and veggies (550 cal)
A chocolate cookie(200 cal)
An apple (50 cal)
A diet coke (0 cal)

It doesn't make sense to think I won't lose weight but for some reason I think I wont. Also when I've eaten a lot in the evening I'm afraid my body will store it as fat and thay it's no use to cut calories.


I'd eat more veggies and fruits especially if they're so cheap in the Netherlands like you said.
I'd try to eat a big salad with a lot of leafy green vegetables everyday and I'd replace a cookie with a banana with a little bit of nutella.
When I stopped eating wheat flour products and refined sugar it was easy for me to drop weight. Try eating brown rice and potatoes(not fried) instead of bread and pasta.


This day was an exeption for me. I actually eat a lot of fruits and vegatables, and rarely a snack. On average 300 grams of vegetables and 350 grams of fruits nearly every day. I switch the pasta off with brown rice or sweet potatoes. I´m not good at continually eating the same dish. I really love my wholemeal bread with fish or chicken-avocado, I just can't give it up 8O



Riikka
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22 Aug 2014, 2:55 pm

Janissy, how did you decide to go on the ketogenic diet? And how are you feeling on it? I?ve been a little bit tempted to try some kind of low(er)-carb eating plan, have lately been thinking about Paleo (which I know isn?t necessarily low-carb unless you make it so, depends how you go about it), but I still haven?t switched up my diet because I can?t decide whether it would be worth it, restricting all these food groups or macronutrients.

I?m not trying to lose weight and I generally don?t like the idea of going on a popularized diet that restricts certain food groups, I don?t think they?re easy to maintain and people can get by very well just eating healthily by using common sense, but having said that I?m still curious if changing my diet could increase my energy levels or make me feel better somehow. I guess this is mainly out of intellectual curiosity and the seemingly endless desire to optimize my diet.



Cafeaulait
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22 Aug 2014, 3:05 pm

Ketogenic diet = high fat diet?



Janissy
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22 Aug 2014, 3:33 pm

Riikka wrote:
Janissy, how did you decide to go on the ketogenic diet?

I came to it by way of Paleo. As you note, Paleo is only low carb if you make it be, but many people seemed to be and I decided to try too.

Quote:
And how are you feeling on it?

I feel much better. Intermittent Fasting is far easier when one is eating a ketogenic diet and the Intermittent Fasting helps my rheumatoid arthritis. It is also much easier for me to control weight on it since I get hungry less.
Quote:
I?ve been a little bit tempted to try some kind of low(er)-carb eating plan, have lately been thinking about Paleo (which I know isn?t necessarily low-carb unless you make it so, depends how you go about it), but I still haven?t switched up my diet because I can?t decide whether it would be worth it, restricting all these food groups or macronutrients.


You could try the one month experiment to see if it's for you. It seems to work very well for some people and not very well for others. The ones who seem to do worst are athletic men. Some types of exercise really work best with carbs. Others (slow and steady, as I do) do fine with fat. It isn't that great with running a marathon but I was never going to do that anyway. The people who benefit very greatly are often menopausal women. Something about menopause makes metabolism go wonky and this helps. You are a long way off from that according to your profile age but it's something to keep in mind.

Quote:
I?m not trying to lose weight and I generally don?t like the idea of going on a popularized diet that restricts certain food groups, I don?t think they?re easy to maintain and people can get by very well just eating healthily by using common sense, but having said that I?m still curious if changing my diet could increase my energy levels or make me feel better somehow. I guess this is mainly out of intellectual curiosity and the seemingly endless desire to optimize my diet.


At first you get less energy. That is where many people quit in frustration. It takes a while for metabolism to make a U-turn if you have been eating high carb for a long time. But once it happens, it's like a fog has been lifted. That's why giving it a solid month is recommended. Some people never feel better on it. Some feel great (me). There is no way to predict in advance which way you will be (actually there is, but it requires genetic testing).



Janissy
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22 Aug 2014, 3:35 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:
Ketogenic diet = high fat diet?


Yes. Guidance is necessary. That's why I recommend The Ketogenic Diet book by Lyle McDonald which I have. You can't just swap out carbs for fat and hope it will work. There is a science.



Cafeaulait
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22 Aug 2014, 4:03 pm

Janissy wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
Ketogenic diet = high fat diet?


Yes. Guidance is necessary. That's why I recommend The Ketogenic Diet book by Lyle McDonald which I have. You can't just swap out carbs for fat and hope it will work. There is a science.


What I don't understand about the ketosis thing: they say the advantage of the diet is that the body switches to burning fat instead of carbohydrates. But I don't really get this. Doesn't your body switches to burning glycogin and then fat as well when all carbohydrates are burnt up (so on a carb-diet)? And when you eat fats instead of carbs, won't your body use those fats just like it uses carbs? I mean, you're buring fat but also eating fat...
I don't get it.



AngelRho
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22 Aug 2014, 4:26 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
Ketogenic diet = high fat diet?


Yes. Guidance is necessary. That's why I recommend The Ketogenic Diet book by Lyle McDonald which I have. You can't just swap out carbs for fat and hope it will work. There is a science.


What I don't understand about the ketosis thing: they say the advantage of the diet is that the body switches to burning fat instead of carbohydrates. But I don't really get this. Doesn't your body switches to burning glycogin and then fat as well when all carbohydrates are burnt up (so on a carb-diet)? And when you eat fats instead of carbs, won't your body use those fats just like it uses carbs? I mean, you're buring fat but also eating fat...
I don't get it.

It's just a gimic. There's nothing to get.

If you fast beyond three days, your body will metabolize fat into ketones, which replaces glucose as your main energy source. Same happens if you switch to a purely fat/protein diet. The problem is any time you want to lose weight, your body will pull from your digestive system before consuming its own energy stores. If your body doesn't burn more than you consume, you will not lose weight. End of story.

I'd suggest fasting between 3 to 5 days, water ONLY. Exercise during this time speeds up ketosis and helps you get past all the headaches and other negative effects of fasting. To lose weight, keep activity up and don't consume more than 16 ounces of any kind of food...stick with veggies (this will also help safely restore electrolytes post-fasting). You can also kill your appetite by going as long as 2 weeks without food...just stick by VERY limited intake after that so you don't get refeeding syndrome. You can continue to lose weight that way, but it will be a gradual loss. When you hit your target, up your intake for maintenance and just monitor from there on out.

Oh, and if you fast for weight loss, PLEASE make sure you have a physician monitor you. You aren't going to want to eat if you go 2 or more weeks...the exact same thing happens to annorexics, so you'd want to relearn how to eat just as anorexics do. The positive side is if you already have poor eating habits, this is a good way to reboot with better habits.

As far as ketogenic diets are concerned, I understand they do help somewhat with autism and seizure disorders. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend them for healthy eating or lifestyle changes.



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22 Aug 2014, 4:32 pm

In truth, one should not starve one's self to the point where ketones take over.

This means there is no other recourse. You're in a pretty sad state at that point, IMHO.



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Aug 2014, 4:43 pm

Looking into the medical sources about the ketogenic diet and it looks it's a specific diet for kids suffering epilepsy; and it may be used for some severe obese cases.

It is a risky thing and needs to be clinically controlled, if you consume carbs higher than what's required for this diet, while eating too much fat already as specified, then this might eventually leads to higher level of cholesterol and triglycerides - and lipids.

All in all, it is an extreme measure for medical conditions, does Cafe Au Lait really need that? She's not even obese.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 22 Aug 2014, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cafeaulait
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22 Aug 2014, 4:51 pm

I'm not going fasting for several days. Period.



kraftiekortie
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22 Aug 2014, 4:55 pm

You're right....that would be a dumb move on your part.

It's not like you really need to starve yourself.



Janissy
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22 Aug 2014, 5:06 pm

Cafeaulait wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Cafeaulait wrote:
Ketogenic diet = high fat diet?


Yes. Guidance is necessary. That's why I recommend The Ketogenic Diet book by Lyle McDonald which I have. You can't just swap out carbs for fat and hope it will work. There is a science.


What I don't understand about the ketosis thing: they say the advantage of the diet is that the body switches to burning fat instead of carbohydrates. But I don't really get this. Doesn't your body switches to burning glycogin and then fat as well when all carbohydrates are burnt up (so on a carb-diet)? And when you eat fats instead of carbs, won't your body use those fats just like it uses carbs? I mean, you're buring fat but also eating fat...
I don't get it.


A calorie deficit is still necessary. I have just found that a caloried deficit is much easier when I'm eating ketogenic.

I'm not trying to convert everybody to keto. I have just found it to be wonderful in my own life. For me (not for everybody) the carbs were controlling me with their sweetness and insulin spike roller coaster. Once I turned my back on that, everything got easier. I felt better. Some people feel better in a keto state. I am one of them.