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0_equals_true
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17 Aug 2014, 12:00 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Its all a bit of a mess really. As a resident of France I'm only partly into their bureaucratic system but also partly still in the UK system as a British citizen.


Hi tally, expats are ok, I'm a trade liberalist so I don't have a problem with it.

I wonder what you think of British expats living in places like Spain or Greece, claiming winter fuel allowance back home (becuase "it sometimes get a bit chilly"), and moaning about the UK being overrun with immigrants :lol:



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17 Aug 2014, 12:05 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Its all a bit of a mess really. As a resident of France I'm only partly into their bureaucratic system but also partly still in the UK system as a British citizen.


Hi tally, expats are ok, I'm a trade liberalist so I don't have a problem with it.

I wonder what you think of British expact living in places like Spain or Greece, claiming winter fuel allowance back home (becuase "it sometimes get a bit chilly"), and moaning about the UK being overrun with immigrants :lol:


It is taking the pee a bit in hot countries like that. We get the winter fuel allowance but it gets darn cold here in northern France. We've been snowed in a couple of winters over the last decade. Even the brass monkeys huddle together for warmth.


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17 Aug 2014, 1:18 pm

I don't think I'd mind someone who didn't have British citizenship being the Prime Minister.



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17 Aug 2014, 3:01 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ why? I have to say that I have a very strong dislike for all manner of patriotism and nationalism.


It's a matter of loyalty and devotion to country. While nationalism can admittedly get ugly, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism.


I believe it is very much possible to be a patriot of more than one country. If one parent has one nationality and the other parent a different nationality, do you expect the child to choose?
There are some towns on the Dutch-Belgian border where the border runs right through their town. It's hard to say that someone is Dutch but the person living across the street is Belgian. When your hometown is run by two different governments I think the people of that town should be able to vote in both national elections.


I can certainly see a problem arising like that in the border regions of the Netherlands and Belgium, where you have ethnic and linguistic identities predating the present nation states. Let me amend what I wrote with saying those standards of patriotism can best be applied to places with newer histories, and thus more defined national lines of identity, Like America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.


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0_equals_true
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17 Aug 2014, 3:32 pm

Got to love Belgium, I mean they tried to sell their country on Ebay a few years ago, becuase of their political stalemate.

Basically it is just buffer zone left over from the Napoleonic wars. On the other hand they tried they hand at being a world power, and sort of were for a time, albeit setting themselves up for disaster, and derision because of how brutal their colonies were.

Nowadays they are not to bothered about taking themselves seriously, and that is why I like them.

There was a Belgian on here some years back, I wonder what happened to him. I shared my love of the golden age of cold wave, especially the band Siglo XX, before cold wave was ruined by goth rock.



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17 Aug 2014, 5:01 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
IMO political office should bar you from any governmental positions or active membership political parties in another country, or anything that could interfere with you duty an ability to do your job.

In fact there is a valid argument which says you should give up dual citizenship as part of a national government.


Then what is that argument? You just mention the existance of an argument.
Remember: in the past Catholics have been denied from certain positions because non-Catholics feared they were loyal to a foreign head of state (the Pope).
Also, many people need to maintain their nationality if they want to own their property or inherit from their relitatives in that country.



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17 Aug 2014, 5:14 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Got to love Belgium, I mean they tried to sell their country on Ebay a few years ago, becuase of their political stalemate.

Basically it is just buffer zone left over from the Napoleonic wars. On the other hand they tried they hand at being a world power, and sort of were for a time, albeit setting themselves up for disaster, and derision because of how brutal their colonies were.

Nowadays they are not to bothered about taking themselves seriously, and that is why I like them.

There was a Belgian on here some years back, I wonder what happened to him. I shared my love of the golden age of cold wave, especially the band Siglo XX, before cold wave was ruined by goth rock.


Hmm, the areas that later became Belgium have been together for a while longer than that. They were called the Spanish Netherlands (and later the Austrian Netherlands) because the Calvinist north gained independence but the Catholic south remained part of the Spanish Empire. And after Napoleon the buffer zone they wanted to create was the new Kingdom of the Netherlands and they added the Austrian Netherlands to it. A medium-sized country to balance out France and Germany. The south later rebelled and gained their own independence.



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17 Aug 2014, 5:19 pm

Immigrants who become naturalized US citizens may have to renounce their foreign citizenship, but that doesn't mean that their birth country is required to accept it.

And there are many US citizens by birth who have dual citizenship due to being born of one parent who was still a citizen of his/her birth nation. Americans can never lose native born citizenship, regardless if they later claim foreign citizenship through their parents.


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0_equals_true
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17 Aug 2014, 5:51 pm

trollcatman wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
IMO political office should bar you from any governmental positions or active membership political parties in another country, or anything that could interfere with you duty an ability to do your job.

In fact there is a valid argument which says you should give up dual citizenship as part of a national government.


Then what is that argument? You just mention the existance of an argument.
Remember: in the past Catholics have been denied from certain positions because non-Catholics feared they were loyal to a foreign head of state (the Pope).
Also, many people need to maintain their nationality if they want to own their property or inherit from their relitatives in that country.


Foreign real estate investor don't have that issue. In fact you can trust it to them, if you plan well enough. It is called gifting. Lakshmi Mittal one of richest in the Uk doesn't have British citizenship, etc.

Catholicism is not a nationality.

The argument is not so much based on divided loyalty, but based on if they are not citizen of another country, they cannot qualify as political candidate in that country. I agree though it weaker than some of the other positions, becuase this can be handled with parliamentary code.



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17 Aug 2014, 6:06 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ why? I have to say that I have a very strong dislike for all manner of patriotism and nationalism.


It's a matter of loyalty and devotion to country. While nationalism can admittedly get ugly, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism.


I believe it is very much possible to be a patriot of more than one country. If one parent has one nationality and the other parent a different nationality, do you expect the child to choose?
There are some towns on the Dutch-Belgian border where the border runs right through their town. It's hard to say that someone is Dutch but the person living across the street is Belgian. When your hometown is run by two different governments I think the people of that town should be able to vote in both national elections.


I can certainly see a problem arising like that in the border regions of the Netherlands and Belgium, where you have ethnic and linguistic identities predating the present nation states. Let me amend what I wrote with saying those standards of patriotism can best be applied to places with newer histories, and thus more defined national lines of identity, Like America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.


That's why I find nationalism more "natural" than patriotism. A Belgian patriot would support the state of Belgium regardless of being a Dutch or French speaker. A Flemish nationalist would feel more in common with other Dutch speakers than with the "construct" of a Belgian state. I think it would have been easier (in hindsight) if they had split up the territories according to linguistic character of the region instead of just giving the whole of Belgium to the new Dutch king. King William I was unpopular in Belgium (for favoring the north and the Reformed Church). In hindsight it might have been better if they had made his son William II king instead, since he was a moderate and he was popular in Belgium because he fought and was wounded in the Battle of Waterloo. Under William II a new constitution was drafted which is the basis of the modern constitutional monarchy. Before that there were few limits on the powers of the king.

Painting of Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo. The man on the stretcher is the future William II:

Image



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17 Aug 2014, 6:07 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ why? I have to say that I have a very strong dislike for all manner of patriotism and nationalism.


It's a matter of loyalty and devotion to country. While nationalism can admittedly get ugly, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism.


More of a matter of convenience to me...


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17 Aug 2014, 6:12 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
IMO political office should bar you from any governmental positions or active membership political parties in another country, or anything that could interfere with you duty an ability to do your job.

In fact there is a valid argument which says you should give up dual citizenship as part of a national government.


Then what is that argument? You just mention the existance of an argument.
Remember: in the past Catholics have been denied from certain positions because non-Catholics feared they were loyal to a foreign head of state (the Pope).
Also, many people need to maintain their nationality if they want to own their property or inherit from their relitatives in that country.


Foreign real estate investor don't have that issue. In fact you can trust it to them, if you plan well enough. It is called gifting. Lakshmi Mittal one of richest in the Uk doesn't have British citizenship, etc.

Catholicism is not a nationality.

The argument is not so much based on divided loyalty, but based on if they are not citizen of another country, they cannot qualify as political candidate in that country. I agree though it weaker than some of the other positions, becuase this can be handled with parliamentary code.


I don't really get what you are saying. I assumed you were against it because of the divided loyalty.
Instead of banning dual citizenship holder from an office, why not just say that if they have a political function in your country they cannot have any political functions in other countries?
Another example is our cabinet in the Netherlands: if you are a member of the cabinet, you cannot be in the military. Once you join the cabinet you are automatically discharged from the military. You could have the same clause for political poisions: once you get a function abroad you are fired immediately.



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17 Aug 2014, 6:17 pm

SilverProteus wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ why? I have to say that I have a very strong dislike for all manner of patriotism and nationalism.


It's a matter of loyalty and devotion to country. While nationalism can admittedly get ugly, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism.


More of a matter of convenience to me...


Not at all. At least with my own sentiments.


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