Atheism apologist Dawkins: Down Syndrome abortions are moral

Page 1 of 7 [ 104 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

20 Aug 2014, 5:19 pm

http://www.dailycaller.com/2014/08/20/r ... is-immoral

Quote:
Atheist pontificator and sometime biologist Richard Dawkins took to Twitter Wednesday to let the world know that choosing not to abort a baby with Down Syndrome is immoral.

Dawkins, originally expressing his disdain for Ireland?s strong anti-abortion laws ('Ireland is a civilised country except in this 1 area'), was asked whether it was 'civilised' that '994 human beings with Down?s Syndrome deliberately killed before birth in England and Wales in 2012.'

'Yes, it is very civilised,' he responded. 'They are fetuses, diagnosed before they have human feelings....'

Gee, I wonder what he thinks of Autism Speaks and the idea of "combating autism?"


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


cathylynn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,045
Location: northeast US

20 Aug 2014, 5:24 pm

the article states that he said he would not abort a fetus with autism.



AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

20 Aug 2014, 5:42 pm

cathylynn wrote:
the article states that he said he would not abort a fetus with autism.

Quote:
He explained, however, that aborting a baby diagnosed with autism in the womb is not an ethical mandate, since 'people on that spectrum have a great deal to contribute, Maybe even an enhanced ability in some respects. DS not enhanced.'

So, he has a priority to abort Down Syndrome fetuses, but not so much when fetuses with Autistic Spectrum Disorders (ASD) exhibit "enhanced ability" (although, how he could determine that is suspect). Does he support aborting fetuses without enhanced abilities? What about those with Kanner autism? Syndromal autism? He suggests that he does include some, but not all types of ASDs on his list of those fetuses that should be aborted.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


starkid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,812
Location: California Bay Area

20 Aug 2014, 6:36 pm

He's right, it is civilized. That's how civilization operates: if anything suggests that you can't be a good little cog in the economic machine, people don't want you around. That's the "great deal to contribute" that he's talking about: worth = economic productivity.



1401b
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 May 2012
Age: 124
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,590

20 Aug 2014, 7:29 pm

starkid wrote:
He's right, it is civilized. That's how civilization operates: if anything suggests that you can't be a good little cog in the economic machine, people don't want you around. That's the "great deal to contribute" that he's talking about: worth = economic productivity.

Good point.


_________________
(14.01.b) cogito ergo sum confusus


K_Kelly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2014
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,452

20 Aug 2014, 7:39 pm

Alright, NOW he's completely lost it!

OK, I guess he has a right to be stupid on the topic.

And are people trying to bash capitalism in this thread?



Meistersinger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,700
Location: Beautiful(?) West Manchester Township PA

20 Aug 2014, 8:12 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
http://www.dailycaller.com/2014/08/20/richard-dawkins-says-not-aborting-babies-with-down-syndrome-is-immoral

Quote:
Atheist pontificator and sometime biologist Richard Dawkins took to Twitter Wednesday to let the world know that choosing not to abort a baby with Down Syndrome is immoral.

Dawkins, originally expressing his disdain for Ireland?s strong anti-abortion laws ('Ireland is a civilised country except in this 1 area'), was asked whether it was 'civilised' that '994 human beings with Down?s Syndrome deliberately killed before birth in England and Wales in 2012.'

'Yes, it is very civilised,' he responded. 'They are fetuses, diagnosed before they have human feelings....'

Gee, I wonder what he thinks of Autism Speaks and the idea of "combating autism?"


My opinion, he thinks he's the next Hitler.



AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,660
Location: Houston, Texas

20 Aug 2014, 8:19 pm

We need to play offense. We need to further the conversation with society at large which will of course include future parents:

You child on the spectrum can have a good and worthwhile life,

talking is not the only valid way to communicate. sign language and notepad computer are also good, valid ways to communicate. in fact, I've read that they have positive transfer, meaning that speech, if it comes, is often benefited by first learning sign language,

stimming is a time and place issue. It can be distracting. It can also be something which adds joy to life. And stimming can help deal with sensory issues and maintain concentration. As an example of time and place, Temple Grandin said that she was not allowed to stim at the table during lunch, but she was allowed to stim during rest period after lunch.



MindBlind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 May 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,341

21 Aug 2014, 3:15 am

IMO, I think Dawkins means well, but its a bit premature to add value judyements on someone's ability to contribute to society before they are even born yet. This is the problem with utalitarian ethics - it makes a buttload of assumptions and the only way itvcan work is if you lived in some authoritarian society. Abled people barely do f**k all that is valuable to society. Enough of them are lazy, stupid, unambitious and apathetic, but they are supposedly better to have in society?

I think that Dawkins is conflating Downs Syndrome with something like cystic fibrosis or fatal familial insomnia - y'know, something that will cause that person to suffer. And while people with DS can be suceptible to certain illnesses, isn't the value of their life up to them?

At least Dawkins isn't dehumanizing people with DS. I think he assumes that if you have DS then your life will be miserable. I think Dawkins is an old f**k that has lost touch with reality.

Personally, I think that abortion is ONLY the business of whoever is having the baby. If you think it is for the best, have one. If you think it goes against your principles, don't have one. Just as long as you know that this child will be cared for, provided for and loved. Because too many children are born into this world unwanted and that is f****d up.



AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Aug 2014, 9:10 am

MindBlind wrote:
IMO, I think Dawkins means well, but its a bit premature to add value judyements on someone's ability to contribute to society before they are even born yet. This is the problem with utalitarian ethics - it makes a buttload of assumptions and the only way itvcan work is if you lived in some authoritarian society. Abled people barely do f**k all that is valuable to society. Enough of them are lazy, stupid, unambitious and apathetic, but they are supposedly better to have in society?

I think that Dawkins is conflating Downs Syndrome with something like cystic fibrosis or fatal familial insomnia - y'know, something that will cause that person to suffer. And while people with DS can be suceptible to certain illnesses, isn't the value of their life up to them?

At least Dawkins isn't dehumanizing people with DS. I think he assumes that if you have DS then your life will be miserable. I think Dawkins is an old f**k that has lost touch with reality.

Personally, I think that abortion is ONLY the business of whoever is having the baby. If you think it is for the best, have one. If you think it goes against your principles, don't have one. Just as long as you know that this child will be cared for, provided for and loved. Because too many children are born into this world unwanted and that is f****d up.

I wish it were that simple, but Dawkins is only one of many people and groups (like Autism Speaks) who, I believe, are trying to recreate a eugenics movement worldwide. He isn't a stupid man and his statements weren't accidental; he knows precisely what he wrote and the ripple effects it will have. There was a huge eugenics movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics in the early 1900s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_ ... ted_States in the United States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ed_Kingdom the United Kingdom. The Rockefeller Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Foundation financed and promoted it. The early eugenics movement served as a "shining" example to a man named Adolph Hitler who came along at the tail end of the movement in the 1920s and instituted a new and improved eugenics movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics in Germany. We must know our history (especially if it is less than 100 years old) if we expect to know what people's actions mean today.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


pensieve
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: Sydney, Australia

21 Aug 2014, 9:42 am

I can't believe how many people outside this community, even some parents who have children with Downs syndrome. They said if given the choice again they would have aborted their own children from being born. I just had to get away from that discussion. I'm glad I don't know people like that in real life.

I've met some people with Downs syndrome and they were more socially engaging than me. They had every skill I had and had better social skills than me. What would Dawkins think of that?


_________________
My band photography blog - http://lostthroughthelens.wordpress.com/
My personal blog - http://helptheywantmetosocialise.wordpress.com/


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Aug 2014, 9:47 am

pensieve wrote:
I can't believe how many people outside this community, even some parents who have children with Downs syndrome. They said if given the choice again they would have aborted their own children from being born. I just had to get away from that discussion. I'm glad I don't know people like that in real life.

I've met some people with Downs syndrome and they were more socially engaging than me. They had every skill I had and had better social skills than me. What would Dawkins think of that?

He would probably just move on to targeting people with hangnails. I doubt that his reasons why any human "needs" to be euthanized aren't as important to him as the actual euthanization.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


pensieve
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: Sydney, Australia

21 Aug 2014, 9:48 am

AspieUtah wrote:
We must know our history (especially if it is less than 100 years old) if we expect to know what people's actions mean today.


Funny thing is the guy who came up with eugenics, Francis Galton could have been on the autistic spectrum. He measured everything, he made lists and he put logic before emotions. If his autism was more impairing he may have fit his own picture of a person unfit for reproducing the species.


_________________
My band photography blog - http://lostthroughthelens.wordpress.com/
My personal blog - http://helptheywantmetosocialise.wordpress.com/


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Aug 2014, 9:52 am

pensieve wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
We must know our history (especially if it is less than 100 years old) if we expect to know what people's actions mean today.

Funny thing is the guy who came up with eugenics, Francis Galton could have been on the autistic spectrum. He measured everything, he made lists and he put logic before emotions. If his autism was more impairing he may have fit his own picture of a person unfit for reproducing the species.

Indeed. And, many of the characteristics and background of Adolph Hitler would have qualified him for his own definition of "race defiler." Hehe. :D


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,660
Location: Houston, Texas

21 Aug 2014, 11:38 am

pensieve wrote:
I can't believe how many people outside this community, even some parents who have children with Downs syndrome. They said if given the choice again they would have aborted their own children from being born. I just had to get away from that discussion. I'm glad I don't know people like that in real life.

I've met some people with Downs syndrome and they were more socially engaging than me. They had every skill I had and had better social skills than me. What would Dawkins think of that?
If the parents had genuine, actual school and community support, this might change. And we need to take the lead in talking about what such support may look like, and I don't mean something merely bureaucratic.



AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

21 Aug 2014, 11:53 am

AspieUtah wrote:
I wish it were that simple, but Dawkins is only one of many people and groups (like Autism Speaks) who, I believe, are trying to recreate a eugenics movement worldwide. He isn't a stupid man and his statements weren't accidental; he knows precisely what he wrote and the ripple effects it will have. There was a huge eugenics movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics in the early 1900s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_ ... ted_States in the United States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ed_Kingdom the United Kingdom. The Rockefeller Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Foundation financed and promoted it. The early eugenics movement served as a "shining" example to a man named Adolph Hitler who came along at the tail end of the movement in the 1920s and instituted a new and improved eugenics movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics in Germany. We must know our history (especially if it is less than 100 years old) if we expect to know what people's actions mean today.

It's not eugenics since how often do people with Down's Syndrome reproduce? 50% of them are infertile, and 50% of the children of those who are fertile also have disabilities, so Downs Syndrome women in a relationship often get birth control. I don't see a significant risk there.