25 Aug 2014, 11:18 am
25 Aug 2014, 12:08 pm
25 Aug 2014, 12:17 pm
TallyMan wrote:
^ I still don't see why you are associating the issue of abortion with religion or lack theirof. Why not shoe size there is just as much correlation. Atheists aren't constrained by any dogma to hold any opinions on the issue of abortion. No pre-packed "this is what you must believe" as is customary for religious people. I've just had a skim through posts in Dawkins own forum and there is a mix of responses, some for, some against and many calling him an idiot for trying to express his opinion in an 140 character tweet. None of the many posts I saw stated whether the poster was an atheist or not; but as I'm tired of repeating, it is irrelevant anyway (as is the poster's shoe size).
Kuribo64 stated that "it has to be said that the phrase 'atheism apologist' in the title seems like a sneaky and misrepresentative attack against atheists." My reply explained how Dawkins' own actions and public opinion about him had made him an "atheism apologist." A discussion about semantics regarding Dawkins, his avocational title(s) and Atheism generally, instead of his public statement about the morality of aborting fetuses known or believed to have Down Syndrome, brought the topic discussion to where it is currently. How unfortunate. Maybe I should have titled the topic "Atheism apologist Dawkins (who also maintains personally held ideas and opinions of many other matters including the abortion of certain disabled fetuses, but not all, and has no ideas or opinions about atheism because none can be had as they don't exist and can't be expected from him even if they do exist): Down Syndrome abortions are moral." Hehe.
Luckily for the forum's readers and titling limits, I amn't so fastidious, though I do try to be as correct as possible. Thanks for putting up with me.
25 Aug 2014, 12:27 pm
25 Aug 2014, 12:49 pm
25 Aug 2014, 12:50 pm
25 Aug 2014, 12:54 pm
I wondered when you was gonne move it. 
25 Aug 2014, 1:36 pm
25 Aug 2014, 1:43 pm
*ahem*... I believe this is the most recent scientific review on the subject:
Choi, Riper & Thoyre (2012) wrote:
INTRODUCTION:Prenatal screening for Down syndrome (DS) is a routine part of prenatal care in many countries, and there is growing interest in the choices women make following a prenatal diagnosis of DS. This review describes what is known about actual and hypothetical decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of DS and adds understanding about the factors that influence women's decision making.
METHODS: A search of empirical studies was conducted through electronic databases, major journals, and reference lists that were published in English between January 1999 and September 2010. Inclusion criteria were that the research explored attitudes toward continuation of pregnancy or induced abortion for DS and included at least 1 variable that explored factors influencing women's decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of DS. Studies that did not specify DS, unpublished manuscripts, review articles, and book chapters were excluded.
RESULTS: A total of 11 studies were identified that met the inclusion criteria. The decision to undergo an induced abortion varied depending on whether participants were prospective parents recruited from the general population (23%-33% would terminate), pregnant women at increased risk for having a child with DS (46%-86% would terminate), or women who received a positive diagnosis of DS during the prenatal period (89%-97% terminated). Multiple factors influence women's decision making following a diagnosis of DS, including demographic factors such as religion, maternal age, gestational age, number of existing children, and history of induced abortion. Psychosocial factors including perceived parenting burden/reward, quality of life for a child with DS, attitudes toward and comfort with individuals with disabilities, and support from others also are important influences.
DISCUSSION: Multiple factors influence the decisions pregnant women make following the diagnosis of fetal DS. Therefore, it is critical that health care providers who work with pregnant women are aware of these factors.
METHODS: A search of empirical studies was conducted through electronic databases, major journals, and reference lists that were published in English between January 1999 and September 2010. Inclusion criteria were that the research explored attitudes toward continuation of pregnancy or induced abortion for DS and included at least 1 variable that explored factors influencing women's decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of DS. Studies that did not specify DS, unpublished manuscripts, review articles, and book chapters were excluded.
RESULTS: A total of 11 studies were identified that met the inclusion criteria. The decision to undergo an induced abortion varied depending on whether participants were prospective parents recruited from the general population (23%-33% would terminate), pregnant women at increased risk for having a child with DS (46%-86% would terminate), or women who received a positive diagnosis of DS during the prenatal period (89%-97% terminated). Multiple factors influence women's decision making following a diagnosis of DS, including demographic factors such as religion, maternal age, gestational age, number of existing children, and history of induced abortion. Psychosocial factors including perceived parenting burden/reward, quality of life for a child with DS, attitudes toward and comfort with individuals with disabilities, and support from others also are important influences.
DISCUSSION: Multiple factors influence the decisions pregnant women make following the diagnosis of fetal DS. Therefore, it is critical that health care providers who work with pregnant women are aware of these factors.
Source:
Choi, H., Van Riper, M., & Thoyre, S. (2012). Decision making following a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome: an integrative review. Journal of Midwifery & Women?s Health, 57(2), 156-164.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22432488
In my native country of Denmark the abortion rate is even higher (around 99 percent), btw.
So, the widespread outrage over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him.
25 Aug 2014, 1:43 pm
25 Aug 2014, 1:47 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
Anything having to do with enforced abortion reeks of eugenics. Eugenics reeks badly.
I could understand the justification in a disorder like Tay-Sachs--where there's an extremely limited lifespan--but that's it.
I could understand the justification in a disorder like Tay-Sachs--where there's an extremely limited lifespan--but that's it.
You forgot to state whether you are an atheist or not. According to the OP that is important.
By the way what shoe size are you and what pizza toppings do you like. They are also just as relevant to your opinion.
25 Aug 2014, 1:58 pm
GGPViper wrote:
So, the widespread outrage
What widespread outrage?
Quote:
over Dawkins' comments seems rather pointless... as the vast majority of people apparently agrees with him.
Most people agree, so disagreement is pointless? That makes no sense. All sorts of situations started out with most people agreeing, and the minority of dissidents later changing minds. Even if they don't change others' minds, I don't see how it's pointless to have an opinion about something.
Also, the fact that these people decide to get these fetuses aborted does not necessarily imply that they agree with Dawkins that it is a moral thing to do (they may simply find it to be an expedient thing to do, for example), and it does not at all imply that they agree that it would be immoral not to do so. Furthermore, the explanation given in the Methods section suggests that the attitudes of women only were included , and we have no idea how many from what you've posted, so I don't see how you've concluded that the "vast majority" of people agree.
25 Aug 2014, 2:13 pm
25 Aug 2014, 2:21 pm
25 Aug 2014, 2:27 pm
25 Aug 2014, 2:40 pm
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