Jesus Christ is Lord!

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Correct.



Correct.



Thesists present the Teleological argument ("Fine tuning" argument) as a mathematical argument that random creation of the life permitting physical constraints of the universe are sooooooo improbable that it cannot be seriously believed, therefore, a theist explanation is necessary. The "mathematical improbability" is based on physical constraints of the universe such as the strong nuclear force, low entropy, relative force of gravity to electromagnetism ... all having such an infinitesimal range to permit life.

When the physical constants of the universe are looked at independently, the math is .....

(odds of constraint A) * (odds of constraint B) * (odds of constraint C) .... = random creation of a life-permitting universe is nearly impossible

However, the math is not so easy because, as stated in wikipedia, "The precise formulation of the idea is made difficult by the fact that physicists do not yet know how many independent physical constants there are"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned ... se#Premise

In probability theory , the probability of non-independent events is determined differently than dependent events. So, the odds could be even more improbable or less improbable.

I don't know if I addressed your (a)-(c).

That depends on where you live. There are people from all over the world on this forum. In many countries the amount of religious people is much lower. In the Netherlands only 28% of people "believe in God" (how the question was phrased), in some European countries it's even lower.
But I agree with you that it's fine to post religious threads in PPR, it's the right subforum for it.

Definitely. How the inhabitants of PPR respond to a religious thread very much depends on the nature of the thread. If it is to debate a particular religion or philosophy it will generally be a lively and interesting thread to a number of members. However, if someone posts a thread preaching at the members (Jesus Christ is Lord, Allah is your salvation, Fall to your knees and pray to Shiva etc) then it will typically be very poorly received. If that member makes a habit of dumping and running i.e. posting such threads then abandoning them without responding to members' comments or questions, then such threads will be even less welcome. We recently banned one member whose sole purpose for being on this site was to dump and run; trying to convert the sinful heathens here to YEC; a religion that has been repeatedly debunked as being based upon (wilful) ignorance of reality and scientific knowledge on this forum and elsewhere.

Please don't ban them, those threads are hilarious, and the risk of them converting anyone is pretty low

omg... lol

You have a cruel streak! He wouldn't have been banned if he'd participated in the threads he created and responded to people's posts; after a few weeks of doing dump and runs he just fell under the category of spammer, consequently he was shown the door.

What I'm figuring is that the virgin mary is actually a depiction of the Egyptian zodiac sign of virgo. Which gives birth to the next sign in the zodiac. Depicted as Jesus? Inorganic beings do not pregnate people. It doesn't happen. God or not. As far as king lord dude dying for our sins, I'm pritty sure he died because of them. He did not follow rules very well, and the real king lord dude did not like it.

Yes, I am aware of that, and I believe it is part of the Issue here. As countries provide greater social welfare there is a correlated drop off in organized religions as indicated in research into this area of interest.

When people do cooperate in relatively homogenous societies where subsistence is provided there is natural love shared and no need for anything else but love.

God is love in my opinion and this is how GOD naturally works per my classical pantheist beliefs.

The three letters GOD is meaningless to me, without that natural cooperation and sharing in unconditional love.

But now poorer folks from Muslim nations are immigrating there, and things are changing.

They are becoming pariahs not unlike the African Americans imported into the USA for slavery.

And yes, they believe in reproducing with no bars held so things will likely eventually change in the percentage category in the Netherlands; simple math there, as the reproduction rates among the indigenous population of the Netherlands is relatively much lower, as a cultural way of beliefs.

There's a good reason for fundamentalist folks to be afraid of health care who make their lively hood off of religion in the US, but no; not likely that they get into niche information like this in a country of specialization rather than renaissance like knowledge.

The role religion plays in America, is one of gluing the heterogeneous subcultures together. One sees this in African American churches. One sees this in Catholic churches with Filipinos and Hispanic individuals as well.

The key issue is knowledge.

And in this case knowledge and scientific research indicates folks participate in these fundamentalist literal beliefs with extremely irrational literally believed myths for social acceptance and social support.

Science also indicates that people who have autistic leaning minds, including the broader autism phenotype can be very literal systemizing thinkers lacking cognitive empathy.

These challenges make it that much more difficult to gain social acceptance; the major factor of causal relationship in human happiness as researched by science.

Where autistic folks are people who perhaps are not diagnosed but think they may have this challenge are socially accepted in some very fundamentalist structured and organized churches where nerds are the norm instead of deviation; long dresses; thick glasses; etc. and robotic looking moves from a life spent not dancing as metaphor if you will; the environment is ripe for autistic leaning folks to be relatively happy there; who are not science oriented.

And yes; while there is a myth that folks who are diagnosed with higher functioning Autism are all the Science Technology and Mathematic leaning major types; this is far from the truth in science as science indicates actually only 33% are; many of the other folks are in the church pews on Sunday morning.

And yes, they inhabit many other areas of this forum; but obviously not here as they are not accepted and treated and referred to as 'morons', 'idiots', trolls, etc.

Well the truth is they are just naive autistic folks who need social acceptance more than most folks and are here to get that.

They have no idea what the environment is here against so-called GOD.

And actually that is a myth here too, in this PPR forum per science too.

Boston University did a peer reviewed study on atheism and higher functioning autism using data from this forum; which I will link here, and found only 26% of the individuals in this forum were atheist as compared to 17% in a so called neurotypical similar forum online.

http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/procee ... er0782.pdf

The beliefs here are diverse; but the common element is still that most people even in this sub-forum of PPR, believe in or the possibility of some type of higher interconnecting force aka GOD in some circles, including me.

I believe the issue here is; most of the moderators are atheist as far as I know; and the commonly understood top ones are both atheist and from countries in Europe with better social welfare programs.

There is a catch 22 here; obviously I think, as relatively speaking there is an issue with cognitive empathy among many autistic folks as well as literal thinking non STEM major minds that are fundamentalist Christians.

Taken all these factors into account that I have taken some time and effort to both understand per my own lifelong struggles with understanding why folks don't think as 'smart' as I do and the reality I live in, in the US, as well as presenting it here, in a way, that the STEM major, if you will, might understand to gain a greater cognitive empathy of what the whole picture is.

It's very simple; many autistic folks are fragile; as they live a life of difficulty in gaining social acceptance; this includes both the folks who have been rejected in Christian churches as well the non-STEM major folks who retain a seat in Christian churches.

They deserve a little more respect and understanding in the human being kind of way, in my opinion, on an Internet site designed as a support site.

Science is a bridge to that, as well.

I was always a scientist.

But I am a philosopher too.

I'm in good company with folks like Einstein and Steve Jobs too. But the apple does not fall very far from the tree.

My grandfather was a relatively noted philosopher and speaker in his time; and yes he was actually acquainted with Einstein and had dinner with him as both men were in a relatively socially unaccepted field of political belief per socialism at that time in the New York, New York area, per the common welfare of the common man.

I try to bridge understanding. And yes, that definitely takes thinking and being different; and presenting the information in NOVEL ways.

I started writing poetically to get my readability statistics down. I've moved from around a 19-grade level per Microsoft word indicated readability levels statistics to around 9 now.

I'm finally learning how to communicate with the so-called common man.

It's taken over 50 years to get there. It hasn't been easy. But that is part of cognitive empathy and I do what I have to adapt as yes, I like being social accepted in the real off-line world and never expect to be accepted here as we generally do our monologues and real connection is very rare in this sub-forum, but abundant in some of the others were the non-STEM major types play in chit chat of small talk. Something I still have some difficulty doing in real life.

I like to talk about deep things, huh. :)

Obviously; and somewhat surprising to me; way too deep for some folks here, even in this sub-forum where one might hope there would be some plasticity toward different ways of thinking. But there's not very much of that; and that is part of the beast of narrow literal type thinking, that is a challenge here to overcome.

But I'm used to challenges. I am no longer ever scared. I am scarred enough to no longer ever be scared, for now at least. :)

Tallyman, I'm not sure if you know or not, but Autism is a challenge of reciprocal social communication.

Dumping a monologue no matter what the topic is and not participating in the conversation is a textbook description of Autism.

It happens here in non-religious topics as well, if you haven't noticed, all the time.

I notice stuff like that; as a detail oriented photographic memory type of person.

Not posting or responding at all and just reading what other folks write is also a textbook description of Autism.

This is Autism.

Plain and simple for those who understand what the textbook definition of Autism is.

And not understanding intent of other people is also Autism.

I mean no disrespect to you here. I am just trying to bridge understanding.

It might help if Alex could recruit some neurotypical moderators; but I do know how hard that can and will likely be, so I have cognitive empathy for that too.

And no, considering the administrative environment here, I do not blame you if you don't give a f**.

Note: two asterisks not three. ;)

I do not think you are intentionally being mean to folks. But seriously, whether you realize or not, on a cognitive empathy level.

You are. Seriously, you are.

That's my opinion, but I'm certainly far from the only one that holds it here, yes here.

I'm just not afraid to express it, as you hold no power over me, other than your threats to ban me, if I do not conform to your expectations of me, per going on with my rambling way of monologues; that is also inherently autistic as well, per my hyperlexic form of Autism.

And that is no power at all as I am only here to attempt to bridge understanding and help folks.

There are plenty of other places I can spend my time doing that, as well; if you cannot handle on a personal emotional level what I feel is a relative objective scientific truth, too.

That yes, I do provide documented evidence for too. And can certainly provide much more, on request, if you like.

That could be modified and improved, but that's all up to you, at least in part, as moderator.

This is a place for all autistic people; I can only hope, If folks understand how diverse a spectrum it truly is.

Sincerely and respectfully, me; in hopes of providing a bridge of better understanding aka Cognitive Empathy.

I see god as good, the devil as evil. A simple understanding in my head. Of course god being a higher power, because it can realate to everything. Things cannot be all bad. Being good is also practicle in a sence that you have to have all of your feelings in order to be that way. Evil people are generally missing something.

You haven't actually defined 'good' or 'evil' anywhere in your post.

If god is 'good', then genocide is a 'good' act. Similarly murder, rape, slavery et al are 'good'.

The devil's 'crime' was disagreeing with how god went about his business. Seems like a reasonable stance to take in my view.

If you take a look at the bible verses I've listed on page 3 of this thread:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf266352-0-30.html
It is pretty easy to think God and the Devil are one and the same being because the god of the bible is one vicious evil motherf****r. Take a look at those verses and try telling me he is "good".

Not he. It. I'm not going to argue right or wrong, or recite verses in the bible. I'm not going to imagine in some misconstrued part of my mind that rape is good either. I belive I know what it is. I believe I know the difference. I can be wrong too. I will allow it. I don't need to describe it to anyone either. Either you get it, or you don't. It is like a memory scribed in my mind. My theory, my idea. Made for me, by me.

Remarkable, yes; interesting, most definitely to me; coincidence, absolutely not, as some type of structured belief to guide the tribe is consistent across tribes since recorded history. Languages are different and people do become attached to their native language and religion is simply an extension of language for greater metaphors to understand human nature and be successful in life.

Human archetypes once thought to be an antiquated way of psychological science per the work of Freud and Jung are gaining ground again in science.

Interestingly, the broader autism phenotype and the relationship of difficulty with language and emotion per Alexithymia may be the source of much religion, per difficulties in understanding complex emotions, and providing external symbols to better understand and express complex and powerful human emotions.

The Gods of Greece and Rome, invented by intellectuals were symbols of human emotions, the struggles, and love that are part of the full human condition, of course with wisdom, dance, song, and poetry true per the GOD of Apollo, for example.

Stories of heroes have always been motivators for the human emotion of hope.

The lists goes on, but the highest power of emotion known as love, yes, fearless love, can be the most difficult emotion of all to understand or feel for some folks in life.

No, school doesn't teach young folks about being human, per the philosophy of life; that comes as a potential elective in college, instead.

But the great thing about philosophy is it exposes folks do different ideas about the human condition from culture to culture.

The consistent belief across cultures is the golden rule championed by the historical man Jesus, Buddha, and Muhammad too.

And of course there are tribal archetypes ingrained in our mind for war too; and that's where the not so nice stuff comes in, in so-called sacred text too.

But really the core of all religion is to give folks some guidelines to live the best life possible, mixed in with the frailty of human ignorance as well.

One of the greatest things about the Internet, is it allows us to understand the beliefs and cognitive processes of folks around the world, much better than what we hear of second hand on the news.

The truth is we have much more in common, than in differences, as after all, we all share basically the same genetic material; it is mostly differences in the languages of culture and yes, religion, too that bring about the differences that cause conflicts.

But just complaining about it in a condescending way as Dawkins does here, is more or less Mental Masturbation, producing no effective change at all.

Potential change will come from dissension and positive constructive understanding of the similarities that most always revolve around the Golden rule in most religions.

Love others as you love yourself.

But for folks that don't like themselves, it's almost impossible to get to step two.

This is why the new wave of selfies is so important to potential greater world peace.

Believe it or not; it's just human nature; people who are happy with self are generally happy with other folks, and at least can tolerate and accept the differences that do result from culture and religion, among other folks. I see that everywhere I go, online and off. And of course it's a common refrain heard in the world of philosophy too as well as the science of psychology too.

There is a narcissism scale with the high end including lack of empathy and intentionally harming other folks.

And then there is a low end of timid soul; which often results in a person who is not successful in life.

The middle balance or way, to paraphrase Buddha; moderation to paraphrase old texts of new version bible is the common well-traveled and successful way that works.

That's what religion is all about, finding out what works in life.

It's not always correct, but there's still plenty of time to make it better.

My religion is dance, song, and love.

The real man Jesus is not substantially different than John Lennon in true effect; neither believed in the necessity of marriage and both believed that heaven is now, not some fairy tale after life, invented later, as a way to control the masses in a poverty of life now, instead of telling them that now is all there is.

Well, now we have the information age; and for folks who truly have love and altruism for the rest of the human species; each person can make a real contribution to make a change that can and will eventually change the world.

After all, even a butterfly can make a difference; it's all connected in the interdependent relationship of all things. Making it work is often love aka as the four-letter word GOD.

And yes, Dawkins is recently quoted as suggested the abortion of Down's babies is a morally correct thing to do, per their potential contribution to society.

This reminds me of John Nash and his game theory; later he admitted that it was incorrect, as he did not have the emotional intelligence to understand the love factor in human relationships.

Obviously, Dawkins doesn't realize the power of love in what happy well loved Down's children can bring to the rest of their family and folks they interact with in society too.

And obviously, Dawkins does not realize the real power of fearless love, that yes does change the world that most religions do include and get correct, but no, sadly, not all.

But a person, reasonably, considering the true power of fearless unconditional sacred love, cannot throw that baby of love aka GOD out with the dirty so called sacred water, and expect to get a good result in society.

Otherwise you have folks suggesting that children who love others and aren't intellectually smart, don't deserve to live.

That's not the world I want to live in. No, I do not want to live in the world of Mr. Dawkins. Sadly, many folks do, including folks who attend religious services on a regular basis.

It's love that counts; yes the four letter word; not the three letter one called GOD that's been twisted in some circles to mean the other four letter word HATE, in harming others.

Yes, harming others with selfish intent is the way of the symbol for the real devil of human archetype; GOD IS ALL; Love is a way for a successful human species.

It's in our genes; a gene called the empathy gene that the free loving, hippy like Bonobo of the early 60's to use that phrase as metaphor, shares with us.

The chimpanzee does not have it; the chimpanzee pillages and rapes.

It appears that some folks genetic inclination for empathy is either mutated out or environmentally shut down through the potential negative impact of epigenetics and neuroplasticity during the course of just one life time; abused by parents or bullies, etc. as potential causal factors. But whatever the actual biological mechanism, it's fully documented that it happens all the time among members of the human species.

Love will help; but hate will just make it worse.

That's just common sense, in my estimation.

My Catholic church calls GOD Love, and only demands people love themselves and love others the same as well as the whole thing called GOD, from the pulpit, not the structured stuff of past.

But I've a got a smart priest, and old tennis buddy of mine from school, at the top of his class then, who still does his homework for the GOD of nature and Love now; the same one that Jesus talked about before the early Roman Catholic church and Constantine and friends turned love into hate, per the uncovered texts translated into English shortly before 1960.

Love is truth; Love is God; there is no doubt about that, at least, in my opinion.

But no, given culture and some religions it's not guaranteed at all.

Last edited by aghogday on 07 Sep 2014, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aghogday, sounds to me like you have more in common with Thomas, than the other so called disciples. Have you looked into the gospel attributed to him? Thomas