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riley
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10 Sep 2014, 7:19 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
I don't think pezar was contesting how debilitating severe autism can be. I took the article as parents thinking it is better to have a possibly dead child rather than an autistic one (of any severity). Which makes no sense because vaccines do not cause autism.


The problem is that it isn't usually YOUR child that dies when you choose not to vaccinate. Most normally healthy kids can fair pretty well through most of these diseases. Deaths are usually in infants, seniors, and those with other disorders. So to the parents looking at a perfectly healthy, strong child, it isn't that big a risk at all.

What they are failing to see, of course (or just don't give a #&@*(!# about), is that vaccination is less about protecting your one, strong healthy child than it is about protecting the vulnerable in a community who cannot be vaccinated themselves. Infants too young for vaccination. Those with other disorders that cannot be vaccinated. And so on. When one of these diseases gets a foothold in a community, it is the babies that die, not the intentionally unvaccinated kids. That is the calculation these selfish parents are making, not death v. autism.

And, of course, there is the fact that vaccines don't cause autism ... but even if we can get them all to understand that, they STILL won't want to trust vaccinations. These are the same families that don't buy approved sleepwear that has fire retardant. That buy only organic and non-GMO foods. And so on. They truly believe that eliminating chemicals and living a healthy lifestyle is the best defense against any disease.


Actually the ones that seem to be questioning it generally claim that they've seen their kid have already had reactions rather than being silly hippies who only buy organic.

I'm not going to call them liars if they claim their child had temps, seizures and claim their child regressed developmentally which is the same story I see repetitively. Encephalitis is one side effect which can lead to "autism like symptoms" but I do not think vaccines cause (severe) autism directly. Measles can also cause encephalitis so either way it could be a risk and if a kid is prone to getting very high temps that are out of control then the risk of brain damage is there no matter what the trigger. Ie. Not vaccinating could leave a child in the same situation if they catch measles or something else.

Instead of demonizing these parents which only serves to put them on the defense and cause further conflict, perhaps have more awareness of side effects and those that may be prone to them as I am fairly certain they are treatable if caught early enough. Awhile ago there was a vaccine called Fluvax that led to one death and mass side effects requiring hospitalizations in small children and had to be banned in their age group. That was ignored at first which led to more reactions, it was all of the news, a mass panic which scared the hell out of the public and people started questioning the safety of all vaccines. That was not the fault of "antivaxxers" or Wakefield or a playboy bunny. From memory one problem was the death not being reported as a possible vaccine event, and the the person who approved a triple flu vaccine (which included swine flu) said she thought it would be okay because the vaccines tested as safe in single doses but were not tested in the combination shot. It seems the strains reacted with eachother for whatever reason. Imo if they put a product on the market they need to test it thoroughly. The flu shots are difficult however as the disease changes very rapidly hard to keep up with it.. that is a very scary thought as we are getting to the point where we'll have no way of treating it. Sooner or later antibiotics will become as effective as sugar pills. :(



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10 Sep 2014, 7:32 pm

Encephalitis and autism might have similarities, but that doesn't mean they are the same or that one causes the other.

The swine flu vaccine was really rushed to market because of the potential impending pandemic. As such, it would have been improper to mandate it.

In terms of absolute numbers, more vaccinated kids get vax-preventable diseases than unvaxed ones. However, the opposite is true if you go by percentage.



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11 Sep 2014, 2:46 am

I am not surprised by this. Every time I read a comments section to a autism article in a general publication there are many posters convinced vaccines are causing autism.

The PBS program Nova did a program on this topic Wednesday night. I did not see it as I was at a GRASP meeting but I am sure the program will be put online or on demand at some point


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11 Sep 2014, 8:34 pm

Meanwhile, so many Hollywood A-List actors have refused vaccines for their kids that the vaccination rate at some elite Hollywood preschools is on par with some parts of Africa!

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2014/09/1 ... -children/

And before you-know-who jumps in and says "nobody wants to be wiping their 40 year old kid's butt while he smears poop all over the walls!" most auties aren't that bad. That's why it's a SPECTRUM, genius! :roll: :roll:



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12 Sep 2014, 10:15 am

I can only hope that herd immunity protects the nonimmunized kids.


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12 Sep 2014, 11:30 am

riley wrote:
You are free to take it how you want but parents having ambitions for their kids to become a hedge fund manager VS having ambitions for a child to be toilet trained at aged 40 is slight difference. Vaccine issue aside a judgement was made on parents that they are being shallow.


Or maybe it is shallow of parents not to get their kids vaccinated because they are afraid it will turn them 'autistic' which has never been proven if anything more evidence points to it not being the case.....so they'd rather their kid potentially be exposed to and die of a disease that is vaccinated against over an irrational fear that vaccines will make their kid autistic, better to have a dead child than autistic child....seems to be their conclusion.

Also I didn't realize 'toilet trained at 40' was really the most common ambition parents have for their autistic children....also its not like being NT would automatically give their child an ability to be a 'hedge fund manager' not sure exactly what that is or what is so great about it to begin with. The assumption the most an autistic person would be capable of is getting 'potty trained' is pretty shallow if you ask me.


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12 Sep 2014, 11:32 am

Charloz wrote:
Vaccines do not cause autism, there have been autistic people around for as long as there have been people on this earth. For all we know there were autistic cavemen and cavewomen, their shamans didn't have the means to diagnose them so probably blamed their behavior on bad spirits or some voodoo mumbo-jumbo. Fact remains: autism is not a recent thing. It's older then vaccines.


Please do not discuss shamans ever again since that was probably the most ignorant/stupid thing I have read about shamans and shamanism...

More likely some with autism where the shamans, but shamanism isn't about 'oh that person is acting weird must be evil spirits' its a pretty in depth thing, involves good spirits positive energies and well probably no point in trying to explain it all... :shrug:


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12 Sep 2014, 11:35 am

riley wrote:
PlainsAspie wrote:
You know who else couldn't use the toilet? Those affected by polio and put in iron lungs.

What does someone being in an iron lung got to do with it unless you are arguing that someone who may end up with severe autism is justifiable to avoid someone else ending up with polio? I already said "vaccine issue aside". Autism is NOT always a good thing. If someone spends their lives not developing developmentally passed 4 years old that is not a good thing. It's not something to be celebrated and it is not just a matter of parents not getting to see their children become successful CEOs or something.

Please do not disregard the existence of those on the severe end of the spectrum.



Trouble is people do not end up with autism from vaccinations it is something you are born with.


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Moromillas
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13 Sep 2014, 6:21 pm

riley wrote:
Having severe autism is not the worst thing in the world but facing a life where they may be 100% dependent on others, with no little means of communication isn't the best thing in the world either.

Please do not disregard the existence of those on the severe end of the spectrum.

They could also be born NT, with a severe intellectual disability...

We shouldn't look exclusively at those NTs, and fear having an NT child because of it.

Irrelevant anyway, vaccines were looked into and debunked an age ago.



riley
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13 Sep 2014, 7:45 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
riley wrote:
You are free to take it how you want but parents having ambitions for their kids to become a hedge fund manager VS having ambitions for a child to be toilet trained at aged 40 is slight difference. Vaccine issue aside a judgement was made on parents that they are being shallow.


Or maybe it is shallow of parents not to get their kids vaccinated because they are afraid it will turn them 'autistic' which has never been proven if anything more evidence points to it not being the case.....so they'd rather their kid potentially be exposed to and die of a disease that is vaccinated against over an irrational fear that vaccines will make their kid autistic, better to have a dead child than autistic child....seems to be their conclusion.

Also I didn't realize 'toilet trained at 40' was really the most common ambition parents have for their autistic children....also its not like being NT would automatically give their child an ability to be a 'hedge fund manager' not sure exactly what that is or what is so great about it to begin with. The assumption the most an autistic person would be capable of is getting 'potty trained' is pretty shallow if you ask me.


I was talking about those unlucky enough to end up on the most severe end of the spectrum. The reality is some do have considerable ID and incontinence issues.. but if you want to ignore their existence on the spectrum feel free. I NEVER made that claim about all autistics. Try again.



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13 Sep 2014, 7:55 pm

The anti vax movement is something that I have followed with annoyance for quite a while. Apart from the fact vaccines don't cause autism an awful lot of the other stuff that comes out of their keyboards are lies. You hear an awful lot about vaccine damaged children but very little detail. Yes there is the rare bad reaction, but they are just that rare. I've seen examples where the 'vaccine damage' was in fact the child getting asthma a couple of years after the vaccine. Diagnosed by the parent of course.

There is a lot of that type of thing. I don't belittle any real tragedies here either, it's terrible but it's the lies that do that. You then get stories of nurses secretly trying to vaccine their kids and when you follow the threads there are so many contradictions they are clearly lies. You get lots of silly conspiracy theories. Also the way they downplay how serious some of these diseases are infuriates me.

Of course the experts they then use to backup their claims are normally widely discredited or not qualified in anything relevant at all. They nearly all do their own lines in alternatives to vaccination also. Funny that. If you then ask any questions that require proof or meaningful detail you then tend to get banned from the forum in question. The whole thing is built on a bed of sand and will soon come crashing down.



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13 Sep 2014, 10:56 pm

I would definitely not vax. Seriously, anything to control risk is good, including getting donor egg and using my boyfriend or husband's sperm.

Seriously, my friend spends a fortune on special diets, ABA and chelation when he found out. He was devastated. You build a life, and you want your kid to be able to share in that life including all the social stuff. And I'm autie / full seclusion sped growing up. Not saying that having autism is bad, but let's face it, it is a huge, massive disadvantage.



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14 Sep 2014, 2:40 am

EsotericResearch wrote:
Not saying that having autism is bad, but let's face it, it is a huge, massive disadvantage.

It's not a huge, massive disadvantage, not at all.



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14 Sep 2014, 4:00 am

This is one thing I don't understand about many people. For some reason they are willing to accept some random supposed "fact" just because they heard someone else say it was true. And these are not just random people, many of them are intelligent people, but they don't question things.

When I was at university, there was an orientation day, and at one point we went to a specified orientation for our major. Mine was one of the science buildings. And it is a pretty competitive university too, so they have to be pretty smart; the average GPA in high school was 3.8 and the average ACT was 29. At one point the professor giving the presentation asked this question: "What color is our blood when it is in our veins?" It is dark red. Arterial blood is a brighter red, but it is always red, not blue. If it was blue suddenly turned red from oxygen contact, we'd see the reaction happening, and the blood would probably look purple at first. I knew all this because I'd heard someone say it before and I didn't think it made sense, so I researched it and also just used my own logic.

I assumed that there'd only be a few people who answered "blue", but it was like half the room! It may have even been the majority. For some reason most people will accept something without question simply because it sounds believable. And then they refute my logic, and they didn't even think about it to begin with, let alone look up the facts themselves. I do not understand this. I mean, it's one thing if it's just a somewhat trivial fact like the color of blood, but I am starting to think that there isn't any limit to what people will believe, as long as it sounds right. People are frustrating.


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14 Sep 2014, 8:46 am

Vaccines don't cause autism.

I'm a parent of a child who had a seizure at 9 months, which was around the time he got the DTP vaccine I think. (Developed full-blown epilepsy). Then regressed at around 13 months right after getting MMR. And my son is severely autistic. Nonetheless, I do not regret the vaccines, and continue to vaccinate him. I know someone whose child regressed at the age of 3.5. This kid was speaking in full sentences, telling knock-knock jokes, had friends, etc. He lost it all---but had not received any vaccines recently. Clearly, regressive autism exists. But the issue is why are we blaming it on vaccines?

The vaccine theory provides 2 things that no other theory provides: (1) a concrete cause, and (2) an action plan. I think it becomes an issue of desperately wanting it to be the vaccines so you KNOW. Not knowing is really hard. Especially while watching your child regress (which is hell, BTW). Vaccines are convenient since they do tend to coincide with late-onset autism. But in my son's case- so did many things. It happened to be unusually sunny right around his first birthday, he also had his first taste of ice cream, he also first started having a pillow in his crib, etc. You could blame it on any of those things. But vaccines are convenient because there's already a fraudulent study and a fanatic group of followers. That is, in my opinion, a large reason why this is so popular. I think if there was a better concrete ANSWER then people would blame vaccines a lot less.

Edit to add: Riley is correct that this is not about the child not becoming the rich and famous or whatever.


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riley
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14 Sep 2014, 9:36 am

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
Vaccines don't cause autism.

I'm a parent of a child who had a seizure at 9 months, which was around the time he got the DTP vaccine I think. (Developed full-blown epilepsy). Then regressed at around 13 months right after getting MMR. And my son is severely autistic. Nonetheless, I do not regret the vaccines, and continue to vaccinate him. I know someone whose child regressed at the age of 3.5. This kid was speaking in full sentences, telling knock-knock jokes, had friends, etc. He lost it all---but had not received any vaccines recently. Clearly, regressive autism exists. But the issue is why are we blaming it on vaccines?

Some parents claim their child reacted and started regressing the same day as vaccinations.

How not recent were is vaccines? Were they over two months for example? Did the other child suffer from any fevers, illnesses, allergies, diseases that coincided with his regression?

Quote:
The vaccine theory provides 2 things that no other theory provides: (1) a concrete cause, and (2) an action plan. I think it becomes an issue of desperately wanting it to be the vaccines so you KNOW. Not knowing is really hard. Especially while watching your child regress (which is hell, BTW). Vaccines are convenient since they do tend to coincide with late-onset autism. But in my son's case- so did many things. It happened to be unusually sunny right around his first birthday, he also had his first taste of ice cream, he also first started having a pillow in his crib, etc. You could blame it on any of those things. But vaccines are convenient because there's already a fraudulent study and a fanatic group of followers. That is, in my opinion, a large reason why this is so popular. I think if there was a better concrete ANSWER then people would blame vaccines a lot less.

Your experiences may differ from that of other parents. I do not think they just "want something to blame" if they witness something definitive for themselves within such a short amount of time after receiving vaccination. "Wishful thinking" isn't going to help their kids get better and they would probably know that. For spontaneous regression from a healthy child to a sick child there would have to be some sort of catalyst to trigger it.. and for there to be a trigger there would have to be something to be triggered that is not present in "normal" children. The fraudulent study (Wakefield) is also fairly recent as parents have been claiming there have been issues for over twenty years.

Quote:
Edit to add: Riley is correct that this is not about the child not becoming the rich and famous or whatever.

Thankyou! :)