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riley
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14 Sep 2014, 9:36 am

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
Vaccines don't cause autism.

I'm a parent of a child who had a seizure at 9 months, which was around the time he got the DTP vaccine I think. (Developed full-blown epilepsy). Then regressed at around 13 months right after getting MMR. And my son is severely autistic. Nonetheless, I do not regret the vaccines, and continue to vaccinate him. I know someone whose child regressed at the age of 3.5. This kid was speaking in full sentences, telling knock-knock jokes, had friends, etc. He lost it all---but had not received any vaccines recently. Clearly, regressive autism exists. But the issue is why are we blaming it on vaccines?

Some parents claim their child reacted and started regressing the same day as vaccinations.

How not recent were is vaccines? Were they over two months for example? Did the other child suffer from any fevers, illnesses, allergies, diseases that coincided with his regression?

Quote:
The vaccine theory provides 2 things that no other theory provides: (1) a concrete cause, and (2) an action plan. I think it becomes an issue of desperately wanting it to be the vaccines so you KNOW. Not knowing is really hard. Especially while watching your child regress (which is hell, BTW). Vaccines are convenient since they do tend to coincide with late-onset autism. But in my son's case- so did many things. It happened to be unusually sunny right around his first birthday, he also had his first taste of ice cream, he also first started having a pillow in his crib, etc. You could blame it on any of those things. But vaccines are convenient because there's already a fraudulent study and a fanatic group of followers. That is, in my opinion, a large reason why this is so popular. I think if there was a better concrete ANSWER then people would blame vaccines a lot less.

Your experiences may differ from that of other parents. I do not think they just "want something to blame" if they witness something definitive for themselves within such a short amount of time after receiving vaccination. "Wishful thinking" isn't going to help their kids get better and they would probably know that. For spontaneous regression from a healthy child to a sick child there would have to be some sort of catalyst to trigger it.. and for there to be a trigger there would have to be something to be triggered that is not present in "normal" children. The fraudulent study (Wakefield) is also fairly recent as parents have been claiming there have been issues for over twenty years.

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Edit to add: Riley is correct that this is not about the child not becoming the rich and famous or whatever.

Thankyou! :)



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14 Sep 2014, 10:44 am

riley wrote:
How not recent were is vaccines? Were they over two months for example? Did the other child suffer from any fevers, illnesses, allergies, diseases that coincided with his regression?

Last one was at 18 months. So 2 years prior. He was not unusually unhealthy that I recall.

riley wrote:
Your experiences may differ from that of other parents. I do not think they just "want something to blame" if they witness something definitive for themselves within such a short amount of time after receiving vaccination. "Wishful thinking" isn't going to help their kids get better and they would probably know that. For spontaneous regression from a healthy child to a sick child there would have to be some sort of catalyst to trigger it.. and for there to be a trigger there would have to be something to be triggered that is not present in "normal" children. The fraudulent study (Wakefield) is also fairly recent as parents have been claiming there have been issues for over twenty years.


I know my experiences will vary from others, however I am in the same boat with a child who had a reaction shortly after receiving MMR. At the time (2003), I felt horrified and thought it was the vaccines too. It's not "definitive" though; correlation does not prove causation. My son was a very healthy boy, and now he is severely epileptic (still otherwise healthy). As I said, he does not have a "mild" case of autism either- he will need life-long care, and that is sad for me as his mother still. That's why I feel like my experience is valid enough to mention here.

It's natural to want to know why something happened. That's what all the different stories about gods were supposed to do- explain things that we didn't understand. Well, I think when you watch your child lose skills in such a dramatic way, it's natural to want to know what happened. It's not about "finding something to blame"- it's just about knowing what caused this (without assigned blame necessarily). I'm sure there are some parents who don't care, but my guess is they are the minority.

There have always been vaccine sceptics, since before autism was even defined. There are many now who oppose vaccines for another reason than autism too. So what? So they're right? I don't think you can draw that conclusion (I know some people do draw it, but I wouldn't). Vaccines do have a certain risk associated with them. There are cases of people dying or becoming severely brain-damaged from a reaction to a vaccine. The thing is, that risk is so incredibly small, that the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risk. There's a risk involved in travelling by airplane too. Most people decide the risk is outweighed by the benefits of travelling by airplane. But of course there are a small percentage of people who refuse to travel by airplane because they think it's too dangerous. So does that mean it IS too dangerous? Now the main difference between vaccines and airplanes, is that nobody is hurt by you not travelling by airplane, while people are hurt by you not vaccinating, because you mess up herd immunity for people who can't get vaccinated (due to age or whatever). That's why it matters.


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riley
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14 Sep 2014, 11:23 am

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
riley wrote:
How not recent were is vaccines? Were they over two months for example? Did the other child suffer from any fevers, illnesses, allergies, diseases that coincided with his regression?

Last one was at 18 months. So 2 years prior. He was not unusually unhealthy that I recall.

riley wrote:
Your experiences may differ from that of other parents. I do not think they just "want something to blame" if they witness something definitive for themselves within such a short amount of time after receiving vaccination. "Wishful thinking" isn't going to help their kids get better and they would probably know that. For spontaneous regression from a healthy child to a sick child there would have to be some sort of catalyst to trigger it.. and for there to be a trigger there would have to be something to be triggered that is not present in "normal" children. The fraudulent study (Wakefield) is also fairly recent as parents have been claiming there have been issues for over twenty years.


I know my experiences will vary from others, however I am in the same boat with a child who had a reaction shortly after receiving MMR. At the time (2003), I felt horrified and thought it was the vaccines too. It's not "definitive" though; correlation does not prove causation. My son was a very healthy boy, and now he is severely epileptic (still otherwise healthy). As I said, he does not have a "mild" case of autism either- he will need life-long care, and that is sad for me as his mother still. That's why I feel like my experience is valid enough to mention here.

Likewise. .correlation does not prove mere coincidence.
You opinion is extremely valid.. however it doesn't invalidate the experiences of others.

Quote:
It's natural to want to know why something happened. That's what all the different stories about gods were supposed to do- explain things that we didn't understand. Well, I think when you watch your child lose skills in such a dramatic way, it's natural to want to know what happened. It's not about "finding something to blame"- it's just about knowing what caused this (without assigned blame necessarily). I'm sure there are some parents who don't care, but my guess is they are the minority.

Equating parents believing their child is vaccine injured to superstitions? If you genuinely believe they are all suffering from mass delusions we have already reached an impasse.



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14 Sep 2014, 12:07 pm

riley wrote:
Equating parents believing their child is vaccine injured to superstitions? If you genuinely believe they are all suffering from mass delusions we have already reached an impasse.


Yikes...who said they were suffering from delusions? I didn't say that and I don't think that. :?

But anyway, that's beside the point. The point is, it's not unusual to want to know why something happened, and it's also not unusual that if you are looking for a reason for something, to associate two events which appear to you with your current knowledge, to be related. Everyone does that. But just because you find an association (a valid association no less) doesn't mean that one causes the other. I used the belief in gods as an example because it's highly prevalent, and I thought everyone could agree that there is at least one god that isn't real, showing that the association can falsely be made, despite having valid evidence at the time (obviously it did not serve its purpose and was the wrong example to use in hindsight...).


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14 Sep 2014, 12:32 pm

EsotericResearch wrote:
Seriously, my friend spends a fortune on special diets, ABA and chelation when he found out. He was devastated. You build a life, and you want your kid to be able to share in that life including all the social stuff. And I'm autie / full seclusion sped growing up. Not saying that having autism is bad, but let's face it, it is a huge, massive disadvantage.


Here's a glaring inconsistency many anti-vaxxers show. They do not trust that vaccines are safe and effective, yet they trust the safety of chelation and other treatments despite what research shows.



riley
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14 Sep 2014, 7:07 pm

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
riley wrote:
Equating parents believing their child is vaccine injured to superstitions? If you genuinely believe they are all suffering from mass delusions we have already reached an impasse.


Yikes...who said they were suffering from delusions? I didn't say that and I don't think that. :?


Sorry but you already said that they all just want something to blame rather than having actual reason. So either you believe they are all suffering from a mass delusion or you don't.

You say you didn't say that yet you re-iterate that they are just wanting something to blame.. and again start carrying on about belief gods as if they are blindly believing something without evidence they claim they have witnessed for themselves.



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14 Sep 2014, 8:12 pm

riley wrote:
Sorry but you already said that they all just want something to blame rather than having actual reason. So either you believe they are all suffering from a mass delusion or you don't.

You say you didn't say that yet you re-iterate that they are just wanting something to blame.. and again start carrying on about belief gods as if they are blindly believing something without evidence they claim they have witnessed for themselves.


Whaaaat? I am a total loss for what to say because that's actually not what I said, or even what I meant, but I feel like I should say something because what I wrote is being misrepresented so much...

I guess the bottom line for me is that just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean they're delusional. I never said that they are delusional about their child's regression- in fact I clearly stated before that not only do I believe in regressive autism, my own child regressed. So they do have evidence- I just happen to think they're drawing the wrong conclusion. That's not the same (or even close to the same) as being delusional. I also never said people who believe in a god/gods are delusional, necessarily- this seems to be where you drew conclusion from (?).


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riley
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14 Sep 2014, 9:06 pm

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
Whaaaat? I am a total loss for what to say because that's actually not what I said, or even what I meant, but I feel like I should say something because what I wrote is being misrepresented so much...

Twice you compared parents saying they believe their children are vaccine damaged to wanting to believe in gods so there is something to blame.

If someone is insistent on believing something that isn't real then they're delusional.

You have walked one path, they have walked their own. I'm not going to judge your experiences as being any more valid than theirs and vice verser. I have also been researching mitochondrial dysfunction, autism and auto immune problems and there does seem to be actual scientific evidence to suggest there are some children predisposed to having reactions.