Self defense is rape culture?

Page 6 of 12 [ 184 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

sly279
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 16,181
Location: US

18 Sep 2014, 2:07 am

AspieOtaku wrote:

Nights_Like_These wrote:

riley wrote:

Actually as I said before I had a strong voice that was short of shouting. I was resonant.

..and perhaps the whole reason why he was walking off was because I said something in response. It was not "well after" he had said it. I followed him immediately until he apologized. As for me endangering myself? I can take care of myself. I don't buy into this "oh you might make him angry.." BS as he already was aggressive and then he put his tail between his legs. I have no doubt he targeted me based on an assumption that I would not defend myself.

So I am guessing when I was dancing in a night club and elbowed a guy in the ribs when he had his hard-on forced against my hip bone and had be braced was an over reaction too? At what point would it be appropriate to get pissed off? Why is the onus on me not to get angry in response? THIS is what rape culture is. Putting the responsibility on women for the way men behave. Putting the responsibility on women to change their own behaviour in order to prevent bad behaviour from men who they have no control over. Worse still putting the responsibility on women for reacting the "wrong way" when verbally or physically abused.

I'm not sorry and I don't regret what I did. I think he probably does though.. not long after I saw him at a shopping center having dinner with his teenage son and we were eating ours. I pretended not to notice him (as I was concerned it was done and dusted) but he saw me, they finished their meal and they left and he kept his head down. Unspoken compromise of live and let live.

Good on you, I say. :thumleft:

Sometimes people need to be told...

I dunno I still think putting a gun up to his head and making death threats if he ever does that again would work better! A permanent solution nobody would want to make such comments if it meant a bullet to their head let alone attempt to violate someone!

if you want assault with a deadly weapon charges sure go ahead. its not ok to threaten people with deadly force.

AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

18 Sep 2014, 2:14 am

It is if hes threatening to rape you then it is dismissed as self defense and plus its a stern warning! If he has common sense hell get the message and not try to rape you while possibly being scared s**tless at the same time! If a rattlesnake rattles its rattle at you as a warning you either back off and heed the warning or proceed and get bitten and die from the venom! A female victim is most likely going to get away with killing a potential rapest anyway and get away scott free and in this case im ok with it because it is indeed an act of self defense not an act of murder, assault with a deadly weapon, or manslaughter! A bullet to the head will stop a rapist dead on the ground and at least warn him first and if he still proceeds deadly force may be necessary!

_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

18 Sep 2014, 3:02 am

AspieOtaku wrote:

Please don't try to give this kind of advice, you're not doing anyone any favors, in fact listening to you would be a quick ticket to prison.

_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,577
Location: Seattle-ish

18 Sep 2014, 3:23 am

riley wrote:

Again, you were lucky, it could just as easily have gone the other way, and for what? The satisfaction of browbeating a stranger? That's not "defending" yourself, that's retaliating because you're pissed off.

riley wrote:

So I am guessing when I was dancing in a night club and elbowed a guy in the ribs when he had his hard-on forced against my hip bone and had be braced was an over reaction too? At what point would it be appropriate to get pissed off? Why is the onus on me not to get angry in response? THIS is what rape culture is. Putting the responsibility on women for the way men behave. Putting the responsibility on women to change their own behaviour in order to prevent bad behaviour from men who they have no control over. Worse still putting the responsibility on women for reacting the "wrong way" when verbally or physically abused.

No one is telling you that you were wrong to be pissed or angry, people are telling you that escalation is not a good strategy in interpersonal confrontation, which if you'd actually payed any attention to what was being said instead of just getting defensive and straw manning people, you'd notice that we've gone out of our way to emphasize the fact that we give the exact same advice to men. I don't particularly care what the provocation is, a rude comment, someone intentionally bumping you as they pass, insults, etc, all I'm trying to get across is that there's no percentage in escalating unless you have to, and you didn't have to.

riley wrote:

I'm not sorry and I don't regret what I did. I think he probably does though.. not long after I saw him at a shopping center having dinner with his teenage son and we were eating ours. I pretended not to notice him (as I was concerned it was done and dusted) but he saw me, they finished their meal and they left and he kept his head down. Unspoken compromise of live and let live.

No one is telling you to apologize or regret anything, it's merely been pointed out that you took an unnecessary risk, at this point more for the benefit of anyone who happens to be reading the thread than anything. It's exactly the same way I'd react to a guy bragging about threatening someone who was rude to him, and for exactly the same reasons.

_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson

riley
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 May 2006
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 383

18 Sep 2014, 4:09 am

Wow sly279 you say I am in "defense mode" despite picking my posts apart as if I am a victim in the interrogation stand.. and this AFTER you had the gall to start carrying on about me needing anger management.. and ALSO said I was all "fight fight fight".

YOU have been an aggressor.. and then cry victim when called on your aggression "oh Riley's in defense mode".

Classic bait and switch.

Last edited by riley on 18 Sep 2014, 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

riley
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 May 2006
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 383

18 Sep 2014, 4:36 am

Dox47 wrote:

What about "I acted on instinct" do you not understand? There is no sitting back and thinking about strategical responses when someone is in your face and reaction is automatic.

AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

18 Sep 2014, 5:43 am

Dox47 wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

Please don't try to give this kind of advice, you're not doing anyone any favors, in fact listening to you would be a quick ticket to prison.

If the rapist proceeds and she does nothing hell go to prison for rape and the woman will have to deal with ptsd and be traumatized for life, if she fends him off and does what it takes to prevent him from raping her shes defending herself! The chances are rather low if he decides to proceed and ignore the warnings and if he does its self defense the police will understand she was defending herrself! [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43lAdgrsQyE[/youtube] If this woman did not have a gun she would be raped long before police arrived. There is a difference between self defense and cold blooded murder! If one is to go to prison for self defense then there is great injustice and this country and it no longer is free! So in a way you are no longer able to defend yourself and youll be raped long before the police arrive what kind of logic is that?

wittgenstein
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,522
Location: Trapped inside a hominid skull

18 Sep 2014, 6:47 am

Jacoby wrote:

Some group of students at NC State invented a nail polish that detects date rape drugs and a lot of feminists are throwing a hissy over it for some reason

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28958365

Their hissy fit is silly. Its like I'm going into battle and someone tells me not to wear a helmet because my wearing a helmet is the enemy's responsibility . So somehow my wearing a helmet empowers the enemy? . :scratch:

The rapists are the enemy!

_________________
YES! This is me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gtdlR4rUcY
I went up over 50 feet!
I love debate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtckVng_1a0
My debate style is calm and deadly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-230v_ecAcM

wittgenstein
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,522
Location: Trapped inside a hominid skull

18 Sep 2014, 7:01 am

I am a feminist (I believe in equal pay and recognize the existence of male privilege ). However, as in any movement there are extremists. For example in the Rice assault case it is said that it is an example of old school attitudes. Ummm, hitting a woman is wrong according to old school.

riley
Deinonychus

Joined: 18 May 2006
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 383

18 Sep 2014, 7:10 am

I think the nail polish is a great idea. I don't want to compare it to "going to battle with a helmet" as having a drink with a man shouldn't be a battle ground. However given that rape has gotten to that point that they had to actually invent a nail polish to detect date rape drugs just verifies that we do indeed live in a rape culture.

Janissy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 May 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,450
Location: x

18 Sep 2014, 7:29 am

riley wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

What about "I acted on instinct" do you not understand? There is no sitting back and thinking about strategical responses when someone is in your face and reaction is automatic.

Problem: Instinctual and automatic responses can be dangerous.

Solution: A self defense class that teaches a range of responses depending on the situation. With practice, the learned response can override the instinctual one, which is safer.

Here's an example:
(not specific class I took, just an example)
http://www.danecountyrcc.org/chimera/in ... ry_id=3920

Quote:

Real Skills for "Real Life" Situations
Since Chimera is taught by women, the course has been designed to deal with real situations that women encounter. From the harasser on the street ("hey baby!"), to unwanted "accidental" touching on public transportation, to the sexually and/or physically abusive partner or family member, the course emphasizes avoidance and trusting your "gut."

Chimera teaches self-defense as a range of skills on a continuum. When avoidance doesn't work, verbal skills become necessary. As a situation escalates, physical skills may be employed. The appropriateness of when to use these skills is covered in class.

Aggressive vs. Assertive Communication
In many cultures, women are socialized to be passive but in other cultures or segments of our society, women are socialized to be aggressive. Chimera offers something for everyone because we teach assertiveness: respecting yourself by standing up for yourself in a way that also respects others.

For example, yelling, "Leave me alone, you creep!" when you are touched in a bar is an aggressive response. Aggressive responses are not always the safest response because they can escalate the situation. However, assertively saying "I want you to leave me alone," sends the message without diminishing the other person and engaging in a verbal confrontation.

In their example, yelling "Leave me alone you creep!" is the instinctual, automatic response that is dangerous because it can cause escalation. They offer a solution that neither escalates nor meekly accepts. The scenario you described is pretty common and having a learned response is safer than relying on instinct. Of course for other scenarios they offer other responses, some physical.

Here's a guy writing about self defense for both men and women (and how it is different because the confrontation scenarios are different).
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... t-violence

Quote:

It may seem onerous to prepare yourself and your family to respond to violence, but not doing so is also a form of preparation. Failing to prepare is, generally speaking, preparing very well to do the wrong thing. Although most of us are good at recognizing danger, our instincts often lead us to behave in ways that increase our chances of being injured or killed once a threat emerges.

The point of his article is that learned responses to likely situations are best. Relying on instinct is unsafe. Although your escalation did not result in violence, it easily could have. Not escalating isn't the same thing as not responding and accepting verbal abuse. But it's best to have a canned response. For the record, I've had that exact same verbal abuse directed at me a few times back in my 20's. My response when people were all around was to say no while giving an obviously disgusted look. My response when no people were around was to run because in that situation it could be the prelude to a physical attack.

TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

18 Sep 2014, 7:44 am

Janissy wrote:

When I took self defence classes in my twenties the teacher's emphasis was: If you can avoid conflict in the first place do so; run away if you can! Try to de-escalate if possible. Beyond that, we were taught self defence based on Kung Fu and Jiu Jitsu. Not the "olympic sport" variation but the street version. (It was the black dragon school). We learned the usual sort of stuff; how to deflect punches, kicks etc and how to throw and disarm an opponent. If necessary, in extreme circumstances, we were trained how to break an attackers arms, legs or even their neck. The women in the class were shown ways to defend themselves against a stronger larger male and went beyond the usual "kick / punch him in the testicles" into the ways they could use things they may have inside their handbag (purse) such as a pen which can be jabbed into the back of a man's hand or in extreme circumstances into his eye and so on. However, going back to your point, his emphasis was always on de-escalating a situation or getting the hell out of it, in preference to disabling an opponent... or worse.

_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.

adifferentname
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,885

18 Sep 2014, 9:04 am

riley wrote:

What about "I acted on instinct" do you not understand? There is no sitting back and thinking about strategical responses when someone is in your face and reaction is automatic.

Instinct is a mother covering her child to protect it from harm.
Instinct is responding to an attack by lashing out, running away or lying prone.
Instinct is reaching a hand out to steady yourself when you start to lose your balance.

Instinct is not chasing an obnoxious man down the street to harangue him in feminist dogma. Nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your own behaviour.

sonofghandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)

18 Sep 2014, 9:27 am

adifferentname wrote:

Instinct is not chasing an obnoxious man down the street to harangue him in feminist dogma. Nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your own behaviour.

To chase someone running away definitely can be instinct.

The statement "to harangue him in feminist dogma" is either poor phrasing or a bit sexist.

As far as I can tell from what has been posted, absolution is not being asked for. There is a difference between explanation and excuse, contrary to popular belief.

_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche

adifferentname
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,885

18 Sep 2014, 9:36 am

sonofghandi wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Instinct is not chasing an obnoxious man down the street to harangue him in feminist dogma. Nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your own behaviour.

To chase someone running away definitely can be instinct.

The statement "to harangue him in feminist dogma" is either poor phrasing or a bit sexist.

riley wrote:

I yelled at him for what he is teaching his sons and how they would treat women, took his pic and said if he didn't look me in the eyes and apologize I'd take the pic to the police.

That's the feminist dogma covered.

As for your accusation of sexism, please answer the following question:

Are all self-identifying feminists women?

Your accusation makes about as much sense as claiming anti-atheist sentiments are racist. As such, I expect an apology as your comment at best constitutes an ad hominem aspersion, at worst a personal attack.

Quote:

As far as I can tell from what has been posted, absolution is not being asked for.

Absolution of responsibility is exactly what is being asked for when one claims "I was merely acting on instinct." as a defence against criticism.

sonofghandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)

18 Sep 2014, 10:30 am

adifferentname wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Instinct is not chasing an obnoxious man down the street to harangue him in feminist dogma. Nor does it absolve you of responsibility for your own behaviour.

To chase someone running away definitely can be instinct.

The statement "to harangue him in feminist dogma" is either poor phrasing or a bit sexist.

riley wrote:

I yelled at him for what he is teaching his sons and how they would treat women, took his pic and said if he didn't look me in the eyes and apologize I'd take the pic to the police.

That's the feminist dogma covered.

So being upset at the way a man treats a woman is just feminist dogma? It is the derogatory tone in which you are using the word dogma that prompted my response.

adifferentname wrote:

As for your accusation of sexism, please answer the following question:

Are all self-identifying feminists women?

Of course not. I am one. I fail to see what this has to do with the conversation.

adifferentname wrote:

Your accusation makes about as much sense as claiming anti-atheist sentiments are racist. As such, I expect an apology as your comment at best constitutes an ad hominem aspersion, at worst a personal attack.

^I also fail to understand what you are saying here. Perhaps you are incorrectly using the term "ad hominen?" Or perhaps you are misunderstanding me? All I am saying is that your particular phrase there does not cast you in a favorable light, and I did try to give you the benefit of the doubt that it was simply poor phrasing on your part.

I do apologize if I have offended you, as it was not my intent.

adifferentname wrote:

Quote:

As far as I can tell from what has been posted, absolution is not being asked for.

Absolution of responsibility is exactly what is being asked for when one claims "I was merely acting on instinct." as a defence against criticism.

How exactly is this asking to be absolved? Perhaps I am not reading it correctly, but it seems to me that she is not looking for forgiveness. She is merely stating a reason for the behavior she is being criticized for, and being attacked for doing so.

I haven't weighed in on your posts here prior to this, but if you want my opinion, they are coming across as having a fairly antagonistic and dismissive attitude toward woman.

_________________
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche

Page 6 of 12 [ 184 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 12 Next

Jump to:

Self defense is rape culture? Post Reply New Topic

Self defense is rape culture?