Parenthood article compares grieving over ASto grieving over

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PlainsAspie
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15 Oct 2014, 5:52 pm

evilreligion wrote:
I don't think this article is offensive in any way its just realistic.



evilreligion wrote:
So sadly many parents to come will grieve for their lost sons and daughters. Don't blame them, don;t judge them, pity them.


I'm not trying to judge you, at the same time please don't tell autistic people they are wrong for being offended by it and please do not tell what is and isn't offensive to us.



VioletYoshi
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15 Oct 2014, 6:17 pm

EvilReligion there are thousands of parent communities out there willing to coddle you over the tragedy of having qn Autistic child. This is one place those of us with Autism should be free from hearing how they're tragic burdens to their parents, and turning a conversation from people who have Autism into a wailing circle about how their parents suffer.

You might feel more comfortable in a community that will make Autism all about the parents, that will not be happening here.



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15 Oct 2014, 6:48 pm

Buzz201 wrote:
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how people in the real world see autistic people, they don't see it as something to be proud of, they see it as a flaw, something that makes you less of a person than them, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of parents behaved and thought like that.

Obviously in an ideal world people wouldn't think like that, but we don't live in an ideal world, and a lot more problems that are going to be solved ahead of autistic rights. As far as I can see, Parenthood is just reflecting the real world.

Image

You can't change that by announcing it shouldn't be criticised, and rattling off something about pizza and chicken. It absolutely should be criticised, we should be hammering into people that we're human beings and not disasters each and every opportunity. How are you going to change that by sitting on your hands and saying we shouldn't criticise, how will that remove the vile stigmas, how will that remove prejudice and bigotry.


evilreligion wrote:
But then you continue reading and you begin to understand more.

Many don't, and many can't. There's also the many that bathe in it.



evilreligion
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16 Oct 2014, 3:21 am

VioletYoshi wrote:
EvilReligion there are thousands of parent communities out there willing to coddle you over the tragedy of having qn Autistic child.


Why would I want to be coddle through a non existent tragedy? There is nothing I need coddling over. I have an autistic son who is wonderful there is no grief about this any more. I am educated now, I understand and am no longer afraid.

Quote:
This is one place those of us with Autism should be free from hearing how they're tragic burdens to their parents, and turning a conversation from people who have Autism into a wailing circle about how their parents suffer.


Sure but pretending that parents don't suffer is illogical and counter productive. Parents suffer for the very same reasons that many autistic people suffer. Namely because society has, and continues to tell us that autism is a tragic illness that needs to be cured. I am sure you have met many autistic people that struggle to accept themselves have you not? You know autistic people that suffer from depression brought on by continually being told they are less than, defective or broken? Society is very prejudiced and you know the damage that this can cause autistic people. Parents are no more immune to this than their kids. If you are continually told that autism IS a tragedy then when it happens to your kid you react as if its a tragedy. This is all you know at that point.

If you want to change this then judging parents for a perfectly logical initial reaction is the wrong way to go. We need to understand that this is how parents will react and then guide them through the process outlined in my previous post as quickly as possible. Getting "offended" with them though is counter productive it is also completely illogical once one recognises that they are simply acting on the information they have. We need to get them better information.

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You might feel more comfortable in a community that will make Autism all about the parents, that will not be happening here.


Good. I'm not here to feel comfortable or for this to be all about parents. My objectives here are two fold

1) To learn more about autism and how autistic people think. This is because my son will be an autistic adult and I need to understand him as he grows up.
2) To gather information so I can create informative content to spread the autism positive message in my own way. This will be through business contacts, my blog, youtube and what ever else I can think of to get the message out there.

PlainsAspie wrote:
I'm not trying to judge you, at the same time please don't tell autistic people they are wrong for being offended by it and please do not tell what is and isn't offensive to us


I am merely pointing out a logical inconsistency in the offence. One of the premises for the offence is false. Once one understands that parents are the victims of misinformation as much as autistic people are then the offence becomes redundant and should be replaced with sympathy. Offence at this is also futile and a waste of mental energy. There are many things to get offended about.

Here's my list:

- The continued non-sense around MMR. This is offensive because it carries on the lie that autistic people are damaged.
- Biomedical interventions. This is offensive because it not only carries on the cure culture but also is a scam that preys on parents and potentially harms autistic kids
- The fat that there are 2.5 times as many working age adults with autism as there are working age adults in wheel chairs BUT whilst most companies have wheel chair access almost none make reasonable provisions for autistic people in the work place
- The fact that only 15% of adults with autism in the UK are in full time employment. This is far lower than the 43% employment rate for all "disabled" working adults.
- The fact the the media continues to portray autism in a negative light on "freak show" TV. With documentaries focusing on wailing, sobbing parents and physically violent children.
- The fact that so few educational professionals know how to make reasonable adjustments to the leaning environment

These are wrongs that need to be righted. Its good to be offended by these things, and its entirely logical to offended by all of them. But being offended by parents reacting badly when they are simply having a perfectly understandable and rational reaction to the misinformation they have been fed is wrong. Now if they continue to wail an moan and act as if its a tragedy AFTER they get the correct information then that's a different matter, offence is then justified. Or if they don't bother to educate themselves at all then offence may be justified. Or if they go down the other route and follow the "cure culture" and try and fix their kids, if they refuse to take on board the scientific evidence that there is nothing to fix then one can get righteously offended as the parent is then wilfully ignoring evidence rather that simply missing information.

mormillas wrote:
evilreligion wrote:
But then you continue reading and you begin to understand more.

Many don't, and many can't. There's also the many that bathe in it.

Those that "don't" need to be reached with education
Those that "can't" need psychological help and more education
Those that "bathe" deserve to be judged and we should be offended by their reactions.



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16 Oct 2014, 10:41 am

Moromillas wrote:
Buzz201 wrote:
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but that's how people in the real world see autistic people, they don't see it as something to be proud of, they see it as a flaw, something that makes you less of a person than them, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of parents behaved and thought like that.

Obviously in an ideal world people wouldn't think like that, but we don't live in an ideal world, and a lot more problems that are going to be solved ahead of autistic rights. As far as I can see, Parenthood is just reflecting the real world.


You can't change that by announcing it shouldn't be criticised, and rattling off something about pizza and chicken. It absolutely should be criticised, we should be hammering into people that we're human beings and not disasters each and every opportunity. How are you going to change that by sitting on your hands and saying we shouldn't criticise, how will that remove the vile stigmas, how will that remove prejudice and bigotry.


The show was aiming for realism, by your own admission it achieved it. I wouldn't criticise the show, because it achieved it's aims. Criticise society by all means, don't blame Parenthood because the majority of people are thoughtless idiots.

Also, if you think you can change society by starting a minor protest over the final season of a little watched show that's probably done a lot more good than bad for autism, I envy your optimism...



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16 Oct 2014, 10:47 am

Moromillas wrote:
Buzz201 wrote:
Shows should be judged on their objectives, you wouldn't criticise a sitcom for not being scary enough, so why should Parenthood be criticised for attempting realism? I think it's wrong to criticise the show because it's doesn't reflect your imagined utopia of how autistic people should be treated, because that's not what the show is trying to do. To me that's like bemoaning a microwave peperoni pizza for not tasting like roast chicken...


Pizza not tasting like roast chicken; I don't think you understand what's going on. The people that were involved with its production, they don't consider AS people as human beings, but rather, things that have replaced (in their eyes) a healthy neurotypical child. It's hateful bigotry that minimises and devalues our lives and the worth of AS people, it's also straight out of changeling mythology. But hey, don't criticise, pizza and chicken right.
i am strongly support what you have said , we are not sick nor broken, so parenthood and its ignorant NT creators are full of sh#t. i can relate to what you feel, every time i hear about this atrocity , i feel like a big and ugly curebie had steped over my foot



PlainsAspie
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16 Oct 2014, 11:43 am

evilreligion wrote:

I am merely pointing out a logical inconsistency in the offence. One of the premises for the offence is false. Once one understands that parents are the victims of misinformation as much as autistic people are then the offence becomes redundant and should be replaced with sympathy. Offence at this is also futile and a waste of mental energy. There are many things to get offended about.

Here's my list:

- The continued non-sense around MMR. This is offensive because it carries on the lie that autistic people are damaged.
- Biomedical interventions. This is offensive because it not only carries on the cure culture but also is a scam that preys on parents and potentially harms autistic kids
- The fat that there are 2.5 times as many working age adults with autism as there are working age adults in wheel chairs BUT whilst most companies have wheel chair access almost none make reasonable provisions for autistic people in the work place
- The fact that only 15% of adults with autism in the UK are in full time employment. This is far lower than the 43% employment rate for all "disabled" working adults.
- The fact the the media continues to portray autism in a negative light on "freak show" TV. With documentaries focusing on wailing, sobbing parents and physically violent children.
- The fact that so few educational professionals know how to make reasonable adjustments to the leaning environment

These are wrongs that need to be righted. Its good to be offended by these things, and its entirely logical to offended by all of them. But being offended by parents reacting badly when they are simply having a perfectly understandable and rational reaction to the misinformation they have been fed is wrong. Now if they continue to wail an moan and act as if its a tragedy AFTER they get the correct information then that's a different matter, offence is then justified. Or if they don't bother to educate themselves at all then offence may be justified. Or if they go down the other route and follow the "cure culture" and try and fix their kids, if they refuse to take on board the scientific evidence that there is nothing to fix then one can get righteously offended as the parent is then wilfully ignoring evidence rather that simply missing information.



I think your heart is in the right place, but you still aren't in any position to tell us how we're supposed to feel. This reminds of of all the old white men telling native americans that the redskins logo isn't offensive. Keep in mind that the writer of this article has had years to see the light but still has an ignorant mindset. He still felt it necessary to mention this without qualification in an article about an episode where Max didn't appear at all. I've read every one of his "The Experts Speak" articles and that's where I get the context.



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16 Oct 2014, 12:36 pm

Quote:
The fact that only 15% of adults with autism in the UK are in full time employment. This is far lower than the 43% employment rate for all "disabled" working adults.
- The fact the the media continues to portray autism in a negative light on "freak show" TV. With documentaries focusing on wailing, sobbing parents and physically violent children.



I don't understand why these are offensive.

I can understand how annoying it is to always hear from about about how aggressive their autistic kids are or always seeing them on Dr. Phil but that is reality for some families and we can't silence them about their own personal experience or else they can't get help. We can't pretend there is no such thing as an aggressive autistic child or else no support will ever exist or get better in the future. It's hard for me to hear about it too or see on TV or read about it but I know we can't just tell those parents to shut up and pretend it's all in their head and they are all hallucinating. Imagine Dr. Phil telling these people "Sorry, we can't have you on the show, I won't help you with your aggressive child because he is autistic." Then he tells another family, "Yes come on my show, I will help you because your kid is not autistic."

If only 15% of of people with autism are employed, why is this offensive? Why not help these adults so they can be employed and perhaps create jobs for them which has already happened by some companies. As a parent, why not help your child so they can be successful and be able to have a job when they are an adult? Set goals for them and work towards that direction, don't set them too low. When I was little people thought my mom was crazy when she had these high goals for me for when I am an adult and her goal was me being married and have kids and have a job by the time I am 25.

It seems to me is saying things the way it is makes you be all negative about the condition or a bigot. I know this isn't the word you used but that is the word I have seen others used when they don't like what they hear about autism.


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riley
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16 Oct 2014, 5:02 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Roy Q. Sanders, is a very ablelist psych. I posted his article where he said unlike "real" autistics the Hank character is a spoiled brat.

Could you please post a link? I am surprised by the idea that an autism consultant with say such a thing about a character he's actually helping to create.



PlainsAspie
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16 Oct 2014, 7:37 pm

I believe this is the article he's referring to: http://nbcparenthood.tumblr.com/post/73 ... /jump-ball



riley
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16 Oct 2014, 11:58 pm

Yet he doesn't actually say "spoilt brat". He compares two characters and says there is a distinction between someone having poor social skills (like acting selfish) and ASD/Aspergers and a disorder shouldn't immediately be presumed. That does not make him "ableist".



evilreligion
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17 Oct 2014, 5:17 am

League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
The fact that only 15% of adults with autism in the UK are in full time employment. This is far lower than the 43% employment rate for all "disabled" working adults.
- The fact the the media continues to portray autism in a negative light on "freak show" TV. With documentaries focusing on wailing, sobbing parents and physically violent children.



I don't understand why these are offensive.

Because they are things that are wrong that need to be fixed. The fact that not enough is being done about them is something worth getting worked up about.

Quote:
I can understand how annoying it is to always hear from about about how aggressive their autistic kids are or always seeing them on Dr. Phil but that is reality for some families and we can't silence them about their own personal experience or else they can't get help. We can't pretend there is no such thing as an aggressive autistic child or else no support will ever exist or get better in the future.


I;m not suggesting for one second that we do silence them. My beef is that this is all there seems to be in the media and so it create a false impression as to what autism actually is. The reason the media and Dr Phil portray only the "worst" cases of autism is because it makes better telly. Its "freak show TV" and this gets better ratings and thus adevrtising revenue at the expense of the autistic community who are not portrayed correctly. That's offensive.

Quote:
It's hard for me to hear about it too or see on TV or read about it but I know we can't just tell those parents to shut up and pretend it's all in their head and they are all hallucinating. Imagine Dr. Phil telling these people "Sorry, we can't have you on the show, I won't help you with your aggressive child because he is autistic." Then he tells another family, "Yes come on my show, I will help you because your kid is not autistic."


Again I'm not suggesting we silence anyone or pretend that aggressive autistic kids don't exist. What I want is a fair representation because the unfair one leads to prejudice and problems. How do I know this? Because 3 years ago I thought that all autistic kids were all violent meltdowns and a total drain on their parents because all I had seen was this unfair representation in the media. So when it became apparent that my own son was autistic obviously this threw me and my wife into a complete flap! Why? Because now our future seemed like it was going to be just like those poor bastards we had watched on the telly, with violent, unloving children who gave little or nothing back to their parents.

It took a fair amount reading to get the correct information and understand that autism was not like this in most cases and that in fact the future was not so bleak. I had the educate myself out of the false information that I had been presented. But during that re-education process there was a significant amount of emotional pain and suffering. So that's why the unfair representation makes me angry because other parents in the future who have been sold the lie about how aweful autism is will go through a similar painful grieving process, and its not necessary. So what we have is unnecessary pain being caused to both parents and autistic people for the sake of tv ratings and advertising revenue. Is that not worth being offended by?

Quote:
If only 15% of of people with autism are employed, why is this offensive? Why not help these adults so they can be employed and perhaps create jobs for them which has already happened by some companies.


Of course that's what we should do. The "offence" part comes from the fact that not enough has been done about this. I'm not offended by someone pointing out the fact it is the fact that this is true that is offensive!

Quote:
As a parent, why not help your child so they can be successful and be able to have a job when they are an adult?


Of course I will

Quote:
Set goals for them and work towards that direction, don't set them too low.


Again I don;t know what I have said to make you think this this is something I won't do. Of course I will

Quote:
When I was little people thought my mom was crazy when she had these high goals for me for when I am an adult and her goal was me being married and have kids and have a job by the time I am 25.


My goal for my son is to follow his fathers foot steps and study physics at university. Some people think I'm crazy for this because he's 4 1/2 and only has the verbal skills of a 3 year old but I know he is a bright little boy. Now he does not have to be a physics geek like me but I want him to go to uni and achieve academically and I will do everything in my power to make it happen. But the reality is that many of the barriers that will be block my son from reaching his potential are to do with the prejudices in society. It is those prejudices that offend me and I want to change them.

Quote:
It seems to me is saying things the way it is makes you be all negative about the condition or a bigot.
I know this isn't the word you used but that is the word I have seen others used when they don't like what they hear about autism.


I'm not sure I quite understand this last bit.
Are you suggesting that I think people are bigoted if they state the facts about autism I listed?
Let me be clear, I am not suggesting that. The facts listed are the facts! I say those things because that is the reality we live in.
So, for example, if someone says to me "only 15% of adults with autism work full time". That statement of fact is not in anyway offensive, neither would I consider them a bigot for saying so. They are simply pointing out a sad fact. But I am offended by the fact that we live in a society that perpetuates this situation. It is the fact that only 15% of adults with autism work full time that is offensive not anyone who points it out. Indeed most people that point out such things are the ones who want to do something about it!



evilreligion
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17 Oct 2014, 5:30 am

PlainsAspie wrote:

I think your heart is in the right place, but you still aren't in any position to tell us how we're supposed to feel.

I guess I could say the same about any nonparents who tell me that I was wrong to grieve of get upset about my sons autism diagnosis.

Quote:
This reminds of of all the old white men telling native americans that the redskins logo isn't offensive.

Well I guess if those old white men all had native american children that they loved more than anything in the world then the analogy would be correct.

Quote:
Keep in mind that the writer of this article has had years to see the light but still has an ignorant mindset. He still felt it necessary to mention this without qualification in an article about an episode where Max didn't appear at all. I've read every one of his "The Experts Speak" articles and that's where I get the context.

Actually reading the other article linked in a post above I think he probably does have a bigoted view of autism.
My problem was always with the notion expressed by some here that it was "wrong" for parents to grieve. Once one understands that parents are the victims of misinformation and the biased portrayal of autism in the media one can understand that a grieving process is natural and indeed rational (based on the available information at the time). When we found out my son had autism our entire perception of the condition was through "freak show TV" documentaries about the really severe cases. This made the future look incredibly bleak because that was how autism WAS to us. So given that information we had at the time of course we grieved! If anyone was is offended by the fact that we went through a perfectly natural and understandable process (given the misinformation we had been fed) then their offence is simply illogical and without warrant. By all means get offended by the fact that the media feed parents BS about what autism is like, that's justified offence and I'm with you 100% on that.

All the while this misinformation is out there parents will inevitably go through a grieving process when they find out they have an autistic kid. Get offended by the misinformation not the parents reaction to it.



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17 Oct 2014, 5:51 am

riley wrote:
Yet he doesn't actually say "spoilt brat". He compares two characters and says there is a distinction between someone having poor social skills (like acting selfish) and ASD/Aspergers and a disorder shouldn't immediately be presumed. That does not make him "ableist".


" self-absorbed twit"
"or better yet an excuse for their idiosyncrasies and neuroses, but where does that all lead?"
"being selfish, self-absorbed and immature means that the individual has some growing up to do"

If he just said that ASD/Aspergers and a disorder shouldn't immediately be presumed, would not have been ableist. When he uses that type of derogatory judgmental language that is the ableism. This is the exact putdown language that has been used forever to invalidate Autistic people, to divide us over what is "real Autism" (Unfortunately successfully). And as a expert he knows this damm well. And even if the character issues are just social and not autistic it still just as ableist.


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17 Oct 2014, 7:01 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
riley wrote:
Yet he doesn't actually say "spoilt brat". He compares two characters and says there is a distinction between someone having poor social skills (like acting selfish) and ASD/Aspergers and a disorder shouldn't immediately be presumed. That does not make him "ableist".


" self-absorbed twit"
"or better yet an excuse for their idiosyncrasies and neuroses, but where does that all lead?"
"being selfish, self-absorbed and immature means that the individual has some growing up to do"

If he just said that ASD/Aspergers and a disorder shouldn't immediately be presumed, would not have been ableist. When he uses that type of derogatory judgmental language that is the ableism. This is the exact putdown language that has been used forever to invalidate Autistic people, to divide us over what is "real Autism" (Unfortunately successfully). And as a expert he knows this damm well. And even if the character issues are just social and not autistic it still just as ableist.


No he didn't say any of that either. I am a very literal person. . if you attribute a quote to someone when they didn't actually say it it's erroneous and yes it's self serving.

For the record what he apparently did say is:

Quote:
http://nbcparenthood.tumblr.com/post/73627205567/jump-ball
I don?t have the sense that Hank is impaired in the way I would typically consider someone diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder is. Hank is able to function at a much higher level than Max in terms of social engagement, social management and interactive facility, despite the fact that Max has been afforded all the interventions and therapies provided for him. If Hank does have Asperger?s, was he just better off or less severe as a boy than Max? Does Hank really have a disorder, or is it just a matter of (at times) being a socially inappropriate, self-absorbed twit who?s generally even nice and tolerable?

Where do you draw the line?

Take the poker game for example, where Hank acts somewhat like a jerk and creates issues for some of the other players. Hank comes across as selfish and insensitive, but do we diagnose someone with this behavior as having a psychiatric disorder? Do we really want to pathologize the human experience in that way?

Labeling someone gives us a reason, or better yet an excuse for their idiosyncrasies and neuroses, but where does that all lead? As evidenced by the card game, Hank can read social cues, but he ignores them at times. He has the ability to understand what someone else needs emotionally because he can put himself in the other person?s place.

Unlike Hank, Max struggles with trying to read others and has trouble understanding their difficulty. He has problems identifying with another person?s struggle. Reading someone else?s emotions and understanding their situation from an emotional vantage point will always be difficult for him. He will probably approach some understanding of what he should do in certain situations because he is bright and can analyze a social setting. However, Max will probably never be able to feel what others are feeling. He will not be able to empathize and engage in the same way that someone without Asperger?s disorder is able to do. The same Hank who disrupted a poker game was also mindful enough in a different situation to ask his daughter, Ruby, to befriend a young man who was socially awkward and strange in his interactions. Such a sensitive concern for the feelings of others would have been impossible for Max.

In my mind, this is the main difference between an autism diagnosis and someone with difficulties in social skills. But it?s because people like Hank were being diagnosed with Asperger?s (a form of Autism Spectrum Disorder) that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders was changed. Just because someone has difficulty with relationships and people doesn?t mean they have autism. Sometimes being selfish, self-absorbed and immature means that the individual has some growing up to do. And unlike someone with Autism Spectrum Disorder, the person has the capacity to do just that.



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17 Oct 2014, 1:08 pm

evilreligion wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Quote:


Quote:
Set goals for them and work towards that direction, don't set them too low.


Again I don;t know what I have said to make you think this this is something I won't do. Of course I will.


I was speaking in general.




Quote:
It seems to me is saying things the way it is makes you be all negative about the condition or a bigot.
I know this isn't the word you used but that is the word I have seen others used when they don't like what they hear about autism.


I'm not sure I quite understand this last bit.
Are you suggesting that I think people are bigoted if they state the facts about autism I listed?


No not at all.


Sorry I messed up the quotes and my response in bold.


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