Is this part of getting older or is my thinking too negative

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em_tsuj
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14 Oct 2014, 7:54 pm

I grew up in an ultra conservative family and was also very isolated socially for a variety of reasons. My idea of what a relationship was supposed to be was basically a fairy tale or Disney animated movie. I played the role of prince charming and my partner would play the role of the beautiful princess who I must rescue. After I rescued her, we would grow old together as king and queen and live happily ever after.

Now that I am older and have experience interacting with women, I realize that my princess doesn't exist. Women are just people. I don't see myself meeting a woman who I will find worthy of my adoration or devotion (perhaps a better word would be worship). The best I can hope for is a real live woman who I can have a real live relationship with as peers. This doesn't sound nearly as appealing as the fairy tale I grew up with.

I guess the realization that I have had is that women are not to be worshipped or adored. They are not dolls or figurines. They are real people who you have real relationships with. I miss the idealism of my youth. I miss my dream.

What do you think? Is the realization I had just a normal part of growing up or am I just being cynical?



cathylynn
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14 Oct 2014, 8:06 pm

someone doesn't have to be perfect to inspire adoration. i hope you find someone you can relate to and adore. not expecting perfection is part of growing up. giving up on being head over heels about someone is not necessarily part of growing up.



MjrMajorMajor
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14 Oct 2014, 8:08 pm

It's part of facing reality. Disney whitewashed those fairy tales, because there were very few happily ever afters in them. :wink:



Klowglas
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14 Oct 2014, 8:45 pm

Artwork tends to portray ideals, things to aspire after... Those Disney tales are about how things should be in their most ideal forms... but not how they really are.

Cinderella turned the other cheek on her step-mothers cruelty; she maintained a good and modest nature in the face of unparalleled cruelty. this is an ideal of how things should be, but not how they really are. In reality, her circumstance would have turned just about anyone into a horrible monster, bred in the same sort of nastiness and cruelty that she was raised in, creating a never-ending chain of abuse that pervades through so many families.

They're just ideal stories of how we should act in the worst and best of it. it's true that most of the world wont respond well if you put women on a pedestal, if you 'worship' them they will think you are too clingy or inferior, here is where they contradict that whole "love conquers all" mantra so many of those ideal childhood stories seem to have, and we're then stripped of a little bit of our innocence when we're exposed to this, we come to realize how reality actually works...which is a harsh thing to come to terms with.

But I'm with you in that I miss it... It's true that you can have better success following the ways of the world, but there is something much more alive and charming in that young ideal vision of love. It really emphasizes that quote, "what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?".



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14 Oct 2014, 9:28 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
What do you think? Is the realization I had just a normal part of growing up or am I just being cynical?


Just a normal part of growing up. Be glad you have realized this, it will make it easier for you to deal with a relationship.


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em_tsuj
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14 Oct 2014, 9:45 pm

Klowglas wrote:
Artwork tends to portray ideals, things to aspire after... Those Disney tales are about how things should be in their most ideal forms... but not how they really are.

Cinderella turned the other cheek on her step-mothers cruelty; she maintained a good and modest nature in the face of unparalleled cruelty. this is an ideal of how things should be, but not how they really are. In reality, her circumstance would have turned just about anyone into a horrible monster, bred in the same sort of nastiness and cruelty that she was raised in, creating a never-ending chain of abuse that pervades through so many families.

They're just ideal stories of how we should act in the worst and best of it. it's true that most of the world wont respond well if you put women on a pedestal, if you 'worship' them they will think you are too clingy or inferior, here is where they contradict that whole "love conquers all" mantra so many of those ideal childhood stories seem to have, and we're then stripped of a little bit of our innocence when we're exposed to this, we come to realize how reality actually works...which is a harsh thing to come to terms with.

But I'm with you in that I miss it... It's true that you can have better success following the ways of the world, but there is something much more alive and charming in that young ideal vision of love. It really emphasizes that quote, "what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?".


The idea I grew up with is that each person has a mate for life, one sexual partner (their husband or wife). and they get married young (teens or early twenties). I don't see that anymore. All the 'magic' is gone. Love and sex are separated. It is just sex and if you find someone better, dump your partner and move on to the next one. I really don't like the sexual revolution at all. I don't see how things are better (other than the fact that people seem to be more honest about sex). I think the pendulum has swung too far. I would probably be much happier in a more traditional society where people get married young and stay married for life, a society where sex is more personal, not a recreational activity or a commodity to be sold.



cathylynn
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14 Oct 2014, 9:53 pm

i think getting married when a little older is good. you have a chance to get to know yourself and other people and decide what you really want out of life and relationships. less likely to get divorced that way. no one is forced to have casual sex. if you want sex to be meaningful, i'm sure you can find a partner who feels the same way. a good friend i've known since grade school married as a virgin at 30. her husband was 31 and also a virgin. even folks who have casual sex usually fall in love eventually and find committed sex more satisfying.



The_Face_of_Boo
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15 Oct 2014, 2:13 am

I call this a progress in character.



The_Face_of_Boo
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15 Oct 2014, 2:22 am

:lol:

Image


^But seriously, they're right, which any of those stories that doesn't involve a "love from first sight" (love for looks by one side, for status and looks by the other), none of the stories show us how things develop slowly, they all happened instantly, perhaps except in Aladdin because they showed how they spent some time together before falling in love (for one day tho lol).



Klowglas
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15 Oct 2014, 8:14 am

em_tsuj wrote:
Klowglas wrote:
Artwork tends to portray ideals, things to aspire after... Those Disney tales are about how things should be in their most ideal forms... but not how they really are.

Cinderella turned the other cheek on her step-mothers cruelty; she maintained a good and modest nature in the face of unparalleled cruelty. this is an ideal of how things should be, but not how they really are. In reality, her circumstance would have turned just about anyone into a horrible monster, bred in the same sort of nastiness and cruelty that she was raised in, creating a never-ending chain of abuse that pervades through so many families.

They're just ideal stories of how we should act in the worst and best of it. it's true that most of the world wont respond well if you put women on a pedestal, if you 'worship' them they will think you are too clingy or inferior, here is where they contradict that whole "love conquers all" mantra so many of those ideal childhood stories seem to have, and we're then stripped of a little bit of our innocence when we're exposed to this, we come to realize how reality actually works...which is a harsh thing to come to terms with.

But I'm with you in that I miss it... It's true that you can have better success following the ways of the world, but there is something much more alive and charming in that young ideal vision of love. It really emphasizes that quote, "what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?".


The idea I grew up with is that each person has a mate for life, one sexual partner (their husband or wife). and they get married young (teens or early twenties). I don't see that anymore. All the 'magic' is gone. Love and sex are separated. It is just sex and if you find someone better, dump your partner and move on to the next one. I really don't like the sexual revolution at all. I don't see how things are better (other than the fact that people seem to be more honest about sex). I think the pendulum has swung too far. I would probably be much happier in a more traditional society where people get married young and stay married for life, a society where sex is more personal, not a recreational activity or a commodity to be sold.

Separation of sex and love is probably more of a male thing, our brains are sort of wired to spread our seed to as much women as possible, whereas women need to have vested interest in one male to provide for the child and her.

We probably separate ourselves further from associating sex with love each time we view pornography, and then casual sexual flings, both which require a tremendous amount of discipline not to do. I don't even think even the ideal situation that you describe can stop this corruption from occurring because of the way the male libido works.

'Nother bible quote : "The wants of the spirit contradict the flesh; the wants of the flesh contradict the spirit".



Klowglas
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15 Oct 2014, 8:16 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
:lol:



^But seriously, they're right, which any of those stories that doesn't involve a "love from first sight" (love for looks by one side, for status and looks by the other), none of the stories show us how things develop slowly, they all happened instantly, perhaps except in Aladdin because they showed how they spent some time together before falling in love (for one day tho lol).


I think Beast progressed quite slowly, in fact Beast didn't like Belle much at all when he first saw her, and merely saw her as an asset to break his curse... so much so he often yelled at her at the beginning in the movie. Over time he developed some mutual trust with her, and finally started to appreciate her beauty somewhere late in the movie when he started to develop affections for her.



The_Face_of_Boo
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15 Oct 2014, 8:27 am

Klowglas wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
:lol:



^But seriously, they're right, which any of those stories that doesn't involve a "love from first sight" (love for looks by one side, for status and looks by the other), none of the stories show us how things develop slowly, they all happened instantly, perhaps except in Aladdin because they showed how they spent some time together before falling in love (for one day tho lol).


I think Beast progressed quite slowly, in fact Beast didn't like Belle much at all when he first saw her, and merely saw her as an asset to break his curse... so much so he often yelled at her at the beginning in the movie. Over time he developed some mutual trust with her, and finally started to appreciate her beauty somewhere late in the movie when he started to develop affections for her.


Yes, I think Belle is unfairly categorized with those, it did develop slowly in the story - and not just for one day like in Aladdin.

Some might tell you he was verbally abusive at first tho lol.



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15 Oct 2014, 10:01 am

em_tsuj wrote:
The idea I grew up with is that each person has a mate for life, one sexual partner (their husband or wife). and they get married young (teens or early twenties). I don't see that anymore. All the 'magic' is gone. Love and sex are separated. It is just sex and if you find someone better, dump your partner and move on to the next one. I really don't like the sexual revolution at all. I don't see how things are better (other than the fact that people seem to be more honest about sex). I think the pendulum has swung too far. I would probably be much happier in a more traditional society where people get married young and stay married for life, a society where sex is more personal, not a recreational activity or a commodity to be sold.


Lots of people marry for life. The thing is, that sort of monogamy is incompatible with the fairy tale ideal you have realized is impossible. The fairy tale ideal is even part of the problem. Men and women are just people (even when they are actual real life royalty). Fallible humans aren't perfect and will screw up and be human over the course of a relationship. Lifelong partnership is only possible (unless mandated by law preventing divorce) when both people acknowledge that their partner is a fallible human.

It is only now, after you have realized the fictionality of the fairy tale, that it is possible for you to have a real and long term relationship. That fairy tale was standing in your way. And it is damaging since it leads some people to give up on anybody who isn't "perfect".



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15 Oct 2014, 10:08 am

if i like someone, i allow them to get closer to me. it may seem narcissistic to say, but they very much appreciate me bringing down my barriers.
i am not someone who takes easily to other people, and when i decide i like them, they surely know it.



nick007
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15 Oct 2014, 6:16 pm

I relate to wanting to play the role of prince charming & rescue a woman to worship. My problem was I was NOT a prince or charming. My workaround was the rescue women in an emotional sense because I really like being emotionally supportive of my partner & I've been through emotional stuff like anxiety & depression & can relate to that. My girlfriend is dealing with depression & anxiety issues & I do my best to be emotionally supportive. I do worship & adore her as she adores me & I don't see a problem with it except I do kind of wished she lived for me like I lived for her but I respect that she doesn't for me thou I know she loves me as I love her.


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17 Oct 2014, 4:52 pm

I grew up relating more to Pocahontas, Mulan and Belle. I liked the other Disney princess movies, but for some reason, those three were my favorites as a child. I was around 5 and 8 when the movies came out and I was so enamored with them. I could have cared less about the other princesses in comparison. Now that I think about it, I didn't care for any of the princes either, besides that they were the love interests.

Over time and my teens, I was reading manga like crazy and I took a lot of my perception of love from movies and books. -_-' This has NOT served me well. I've only ever been in 2 relationships and they were both with man-children. So, between my exes and observing real-life couples, I came to realize a lot more that love isn't like the movies.

I'm feeling pretty cynical about love and relationships now. I think a real working relationship, especially with an aspie, takes a huge amount of love, work, compromise and patience, among other things. But people are raised with this stupidly flimsy idea of love being instant and long-lasting with not much effort at all, which is totally opposite of reality and probably a huge set up for failure. A lot of relationships I've observed are hugely based on attraction, sex, the honeymoon phase and a lot of self interest without much of a foundation. :/

And yes, Beast WAS verbally abusive.