Socialist party advocates for $20/hr and only pays $13/hr

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Dox47
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21 Oct 2014, 7:45 pm

thomas81 wrote:
In any case, I would be willing to bet that $13 an hour is still head and shoulders above what most anti-socialist employers would usually pay to the same worker of equivalent skill bracket.


http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/16/socia ... m-wage-but

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Although the average annual salary of a web developer in the U.S. is around $62,500, the Freedom Socialist Party only wants to pay $13 an hour, which would be $26,000 a year. Except that the party won't hire someone full-time, so their next web developer's total compensation won't even be that modest chunk of change. Perhaps they're just trying to protect their employees from the temptations of "capitalist greed."


Do they not have Google in Ireland?


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thomas81
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21 Oct 2014, 7:50 pm

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
In any case, I would be willing to bet that $13 an hour is still head and shoulders above what most anti-socialist employers would usually pay to the same worker of equivalent skill bracket.


http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/16/socia ... m-wage-but

Quote:
Although the average annual salary of a web developer in the U.S. is around $62,500, the Freedom Socialist Party only wants to pay $13 an hour, which would be $26,000 a year. Except that the party won't hire someone full-time, so their next web developer's total compensation won't even be that modest chunk of change. Perhaps they're just trying to protect their employees from the temptations of "capitalist greed."


Do they not have Google in Ireland?


$13 as opposed to nothing is probably attractive to a prospective unemployed web developer without experience that cant get their foot in the door anywhere else. Theres other factors here. I am largely not privvy to the cost of living in America. We haven't been told if this job offers a good, extensive health insurance or not.

In any case.... ....disagreeing with the argument that this party are hypocrites is a far cry from agreeing with each of their individual policies.

Do i believe that skilled workers should be paid the same as what is considered to be the equivalent for 'unskilled workers'? No i don't. I don't agree with this model of trade in the first instance. However thats a debate for another thread.


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Last edited by thomas81 on 21 Oct 2014, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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21 Oct 2014, 7:54 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Fine advocacy of free speech.


I must have missed the part where I tried to silence you, I was too busy handing you rope and stepping back to let you do your thing.


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21 Oct 2014, 7:54 pm

thomas81 wrote:
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There is racism and always will be. However, it's miniscule compared to what it was 50 years ago.

Which makes what we have acceptable?

"We"? Are you talking about Ireland now?
And who said it was acceptable? It is greatly diminished like I said and the choices are either to cry over it or soldier on despite it and take comfort that it will continue to diminish as it has been.

Raptor wrote:
$20 hr as minimum aint gonna happen for a long time

Not if the GOP-Democrat dichotomy have anything to do with it, no.

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
and it's just as well. It would kill most small businesses dead and prevent others from even starting.

Thats one spin on it.

It's reality unless you want to wreck most small business and create mass unemployment. $20 minimum is awesome until you can't find anyone that can afford to pay it.

thomas81 wrote:
The other is it would actually stimulate the economy by improving the spending power of regular joes whose dollars small businesses depend on. This is where government assistance is needed, not deregulation or permitting nastier contracts of work. In this country small businesses can hire skilled staff for a one off fee of £1000 a year per staff member (about $1500 in your money) then the government are paying the other £19000 or whatever it happens to be.

If the government has to crutch business to that extent then it's hardly private business anymore.


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Last edited by Raptor on 21 Oct 2014, 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dox47
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21 Oct 2014, 7:55 pm

thomas81 wrote:
$13 as opposed to nothing is probably attractive to a prospective unemployed web developer without experience that cant get their foot in the door anywhere else.


Oh, so you agree with the arguments against a high minimum wage then?


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thomas81
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21 Oct 2014, 7:57 pm

Raptor wrote:
If the government has to crutch business to that extent then it's hardly private business anymore.


Maybe thats the point, private business is over rated.

Quality of life and human security is more important than laissez faire dogma.


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thomas81
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21 Oct 2014, 8:00 pm

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
$13 as opposed to nothing is probably attractive to a prospective unemployed web developer without experience that cant get their foot in the door anywhere else.


Oh, so you agree with the arguments against a high minimum wage then?


I didn't say that. I would like see an end to the behaviours by predatory companies and political institutions that drive up unemployment and poverty. I don't necessarilly believe that a high minimum wage is at fault here.

I blame the recession on reckless bankers and speculative capitalists who gambled with our money and lost it before they recieved copious handouts to the tune of billions in taxpayers money in this perverse 'socialism for the rich and screw the rest' scenario.

However what I don't blame is ordinary people for having the temerity to ask for a dignified wage.


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21 Oct 2014, 8:07 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
If the government has to crutch business to that extent then it's hardly private business anymore.


Maybe thats the point, private business is over rated.

Quality of life and human security is more important than laissez faire dogma.


I'll risk the rocks and shoals of capitalism any day over trusting my quality of life and human security to incompetent government bureaucrats. I work with incompetent government bureaucrats and while I'm generally on good terms with them I would not task them with so much as making a passable peanut butter and jelly sandwich.


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21 Oct 2014, 8:08 pm

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fine advocacy of free speech.


I must have missed the part where I tried to silence you, I was too busy handing you rope and stepping back to let you do your thing.


you said i was 'smearing' when i was doing no such thing. However you are too incredulous to see that.

If you want to dismiss all dissenting opinion as smear then you can dismiss any argument you want without having to defend your position.


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thomas81
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21 Oct 2014, 8:10 pm

Raptor wrote:

I'll risk the rocks and shoals of capitalism any day over trusting my quality of life and human security to incompetent government bureaucrats. I work with incompetent government bureaucrats and while I'm generally on good terms with them I would not task them with so much as making a passable peanut butter and jelly sandwich.


It depends on the quality of people you elect.

The problem with western democracies is that they elect unqualified bureaucrats suffering from terminal unwarranted self importance and then they act all surprised when they get leaders who exhibit the exact same attributes.

What we need is the rule of the skilled, not rule of the popularity contest winner.


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21 Oct 2014, 8:33 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:

I'll risk the rocks and shoals of capitalism any day over trusting my quality of life and human security to incompetent government bureaucrats. I work with incompetent government bureaucrats and while I'm generally on good terms with them I would not task them with so much as making a passable peanut butter and jelly sandwich.


It depends on the quality of people you elect.

The problem with western democracies is that they elect unqualified bureaucrats suffering from terminal unwarranted self importance and then they act all surprised when they get leaders who exhibit the exact same attributes.


1. You can't force competent people to run for office any more than you can prevent the incompetent from running. It comes down to choosing the lesser of two (or however many) evils.
2. The incompetent bureaucrats I was refering to are government employees, not elected officials. We can't weed out the incompetent because according to the left that might be mean.

Quote:
What we need is the rule of the skilled, not rule of the popularity contest winner.

There's the "we" thing again. Are you saying this problem exists in Ireland, too?


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thomas81
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21 Oct 2014, 9:50 pm

Raptor wrote:

1. You can't force competent people to run for office any more than you can prevent the incompetent from running. It comes down to choosing the lesser of two (or however many) evils.


Thats quite the point. I don't think there should be an 'office' as we understand it. I don't believe in having grey suited officials who ubiquitously dictate every industry regardless of their knowledge or understanding of it.

The health sector should be run by doctors. Science and research should be run by scientists. The education department should be run by teachers and so on and so fourth,

Raptor wrote:
2. The incompetent bureaucrats I was refering to are government employees, not elected officials. We can't weed out the incompetent because according to the left that might be mean.

If you believe that the worst incompetency is from the bottom up you haven't been paying attention.
Raptor wrote:
There's the "we" thing again. Are you saying this problem exists in Ireland, too?

The problem is everywhere. Its ubiquitous. Theres no getting away from it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_SDTzIZzTM[/youtube]


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22 Oct 2014, 10:20 am

thomas81 wrote:
Israel is a group of xenophobic butchers on whom awareness needs to be raised. Unfortunately conservatives and reactionaries seem bent on gagging that, which is why you accuse me of 'smearing'. Fine advocacy of free speech.

Amen

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22 Oct 2014, 10:48 am

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:

1. You can't force competent people to run for office any more than you can prevent the incompetent from running. It comes down to choosing the lesser of two (or however many) evils.


Thats quite the point. I don't think there should be an 'office' as we understand it. I don't believe in having grey suited officials who ubiquitously dictate every industry regardless of their knowledge or understanding of it.

The health sector should be run by doctors. Science and research should be run by scientists. The education department should be run by teachers and so on and so fourth,

We have to be able to elect our representatives. Period.

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
2. The incompetent bureaucrats I was refering to are government employees, not elected officials. We can't weed out the incompetent because according to the left that might be mean.

If you believe that the worst incompetency is from the bottom up you haven't been paying attention.

WTF are you talking about? It's the ones from the bottom up that we have to deal with face to face and the ones responsible for carrying out policy.

thomas81 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
There's the "we" thing again. Are you saying this problem exists in Ireland, too?

The problem is everywhere. Its ubiquitous. Theres no getting away from it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_SDTzIZzTM[/youtube]


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22 Oct 2014, 2:39 pm

Raptor wrote:
We have to be able to elect our representatives. Period.

Representatives in liberal democracy don't serve a practical function.

If we want a true democracy. People who are chosen as delegates must be recallable/rotatable at any time by his or her constituents, whose will these representatives are supposed to communicate.



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22 Oct 2014, 9:40 pm

So basically, we would be in a permanent campaign cycle? How would we find time to pay attention to anything else?