If "God" wanted humans to believe in him...

Page 1 of 2 [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

28 Oct 2014, 5:05 pm

Why assume a creator wants us to believe in it? Or cares if we worship, it or not? Or even if it did why oblige? Why assume there is an afterlife?

I'm atheist, but if I wasn't I'd be a Deist. Basically the idea that God created the universe, then took the rest of time off, wants us to use reason and scientific endeavors to sort out problems. Including developing our own system of morality.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,881
Location: temperate zone

28 Oct 2014, 11:49 pm

A religous person would probably respond to the question by saying that "God doesnt want robot like devotion. So he gave us free will so that we could choose, or not choose, to embrace him. Which is why he equiped us with the extra gray matter so we are forced to make choices, and embrace him out of deliberate volition."



Last edited by naturalplastic on 29 Oct 2014, 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

guzzle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,298
Location: Close To The Border

29 Oct 2014, 12:15 am

naturalplastic wrote:
guzzle wrote:
khaoz wrote:
why did he give us a brain? If "God" created us and gave us brains, why did he give animals brains and not expect them to believe in him?

This is the part I enjoy most, is watching believers make excuses for and justifications for, this response. No bible quotes, please.


How do you determine that animals have a need to believe in anything or not


That is the least problem with this brain-dead brain question- indeed If I were the OP I would demand that the moderators take this thread off of life support.

There are too many logical problems with the question (as worded) to list.

But I'll just skip that and state the question that I THINK he is trying to ask.

That question is: if God demands faith, then why did he create us with brains that can reason well enough to see the contradictions of faith? Why didnt he just make us dumb enough to just have faith without the ability to question faith? Something along those lines.


I don't get atheists at all. I mean, everybody believes in something don't they? Albeit science to explain the material world to them.
The animal bit was the only part that made sense. Thanks for translating the rest to Simple English 8)
Anyway
Reasoning tells me everything starts with something so I got no issue with the Big Bang Theory only that than makes me wonder where the gasses that caused the Big Bang originated from :?. Science didn't have an answer so I stuck to believing. I'm the kind of person that needs closure. Infinity hurts my brain and I find solace in mythology for creation stories :P
I never did read the bible though as I managed to get kicked out of catholic school aged 10 because my awkward question asking got to the nun in the end I think and it all ended with her chasing me down the hallway :lol:
So, many, many years later I kind of read bits of The Brick testament http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums-posti ... 15494.html to see what it was all about and the thing that stand me by is that this God of the bible is not really a very nice character the way I see it and just imagine I would treat my kid the way he treated his kid.... As to why anyone would want to revere a character like that is beyond me. And for that character then to demand faith of me. it's just not logical.

Science demands faith too so really not that much difference to me. I used to have faith in medical science but not anymore. Many do still do though. Plant science has gone off the rails too in my opinion. But that is another thread alltogether.
It's all dogma to me. And I prefer my own dogma.
So to the OP-->
Animals have other things to 'worry' about
alert dogs: http://4pawsforability.org/seizure-assistance-dog/
cancer: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6919063.stm
orientation: http://www.reizen-langs-rivieren.nl/the ... ill-a.html
And, closer to home
autism: http://www.horseboymovie.com/Film.php
And that's not making excuses or justification, it's just the way it is and well documented.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,881
Location: temperate zone

29 Oct 2014, 12:36 am

All of us pet owners KNOW that pets are theists. Though the exact theology varies by species.

As someone else on WP (forget who) once said:

"Feeding your dog convinces your dog that you must be God.

Feeding your cat convinces your cat that the cat itsself must be God."



AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

29 Oct 2014, 2:48 am

He needs to exist for us to believe him and also show himself before us.


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


Narrator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060
Location: Melbourne, Australia

29 Oct 2014, 5:32 am

guzzle wrote:
I don't get atheists at all. I mean, everybody believes in something don't they?


Richard Dawkins ? 'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.'


_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


guzzle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,298
Location: Close To The Border

29 Oct 2014, 10:28 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
He needs to exist for us to believe him and also show himself before us.


I used to be of the belief that unless science could provide evidence of a black hole in practical terms rather than by means of mathemathical formula I would believe they existed. I still sort of and sadly enough my maths is not up there to postulate that Qi is no more than the energy of light that lingers in our bodies. After all, energy can't be destroyed can it now? By my logic that would then make my pupil a black hole.

For as much as I need closure I can not ignore the empirical evidence I have encountered in my experiences with energy-based medicine systems that would allow me to rationally dismiss it. So I carry on believing until I come accross experiences that drastically causes me to re-evaluate my beliefs.

It's all about how your brain is wired to me. And science don't have a clue really. Mathemathecal logic don't cut when it comes to the brain as neurons don't abide by the logic of standard maths. So go on, bash neurotheology next. It's an emerging science just like so many before were,

I'd love to know personally what goes on in my brain with regards to my beliefs. It's us and them. And you are probably one of them :P

Quote:
Quote:
When neuroscientist Andrew Newberg scanned the brain of ?Kevin?, a staunchatheist, while he was meditating, he made a fascinating discovery. ?Compared with the Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns, whose brains I?d also scanned, Kevin?s brain operated in a significantly different way,? he says.

?He had far more activity in the prefrontal cortex, the area that controls emotional feelings and mediates attention. Kevin?s brain appeared to be functioning in a highly analytical way, even when he was in a resting state.?

?I get attacked by everyone,? says Patrick McNamara, associate professor of neurology at Boston University and author of The Neuroscience of Religious Experience. ?Atheists hate me because I?m saying religion has some basis in the brain and fundamentalist Christians hate me because I?m saying religion is nothing but brain impulses.?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... brain.html



guzzle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,298
Location: Close To The Border

29 Oct 2014, 10:32 am

naturalplastic wrote:
All of us pet owners KNOW that pets are theists. Though the exact theology varies by species.

As someone else on WP (forget who) once said:

"Feeding your dog convinces your dog that you must be God.

Feeding your cat convinces your cat that the cat itsself must be God."


So...

Dog owners have an intricate need to be revered and cat owners intricately need to revere?

:D :P



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,881
Location: temperate zone

29 Oct 2014, 11:49 am

I'm not talking about the people.

I'm talking about the animals.

Animals may have some vague notions in their heads about diety-like beings. Humans evolved from mammalian animal ancestors. So me be wired to some degree to create dieties. Researchers have found that human children spontaneously create ideas like "the moon watches me", and the like. Just speculating.

And in jest I quoted that above quip about pets. But many a truth is spoken in jest.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 31 Oct 2014, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Narrator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,060
Location: Melbourne, Australia

31 Oct 2014, 1:04 am

guzzle wrote:
Quote:
When neuroscientist Andrew Newberg scanned the brain of ?Kevin?, a staunchatheist, while he was meditating, he made a fascinating discovery. ?Compared with the Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns, whose brains I?d also scanned, Kevin?s brain operated in a significantly different way,? he says.

?He had far more activity in the prefrontal cortex, the area that controls emotional feelings and mediates attention. Kevin?s brain appeared to be functioning in a highly analytical way, even when he was in a resting state.?

?I get attacked by everyone,? says Patrick McNamara, associate professor of neurology at Boston University and author of The Neuroscience of Religious Experience. ?Atheists hate me because I?m saying religion has some basis in the brain and fundamentalist Christians hate me because I?m saying religion is nothing but brain impulses.?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... brain.html

I don't get the above relationship. Atheists aren't atheists from birth. And theists aren't theists from birth.
Also, many people are one or the other for a good part of their lives before changing sides.
Did my brain change when I went from theist to atheist in my early 50's? I think not.

The other thing about the above is that it gives no clue about the size of Newberg's samples. If Kevin is his "only" atheist, and his other samples are similarly small, it's a huge stretch to draw any conclusions.


_________________
I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

31 Oct 2014, 10:50 am

guzzle wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
He needs to exist for us to believe him and also show himself before us.


I used to be of the belief that unless science could provide evidence of a black hole in practical terms rather than by means of mathemathical formula I would believe they existed. I still sort of and sadly enough my maths is not up there to postulate that Qi is no more than the energy of light that lingers in our bodies. After all, energy can't be destroyed can it now? By my logic that would then make my pupil a black hole.

For as much as I need closure I can not ignore the empirical evidence I have encountered in my experiences with energy-based medicine systems that would allow me to rationally dismiss it. So I carry on believing until I come accross experiences that drastically causes me to re-evaluate my beliefs.

It's all about how your brain is wired to me. And science don't have a clue really. Mathemathecal logic don't cut when it comes to the brain as neurons don't abide by the logic of standard maths. So go on, bash neurotheology next. It's an emerging science just like so many before were,

I'd love to know personally what goes on in my brain with regards to my beliefs. It's us and them. And you are probably one of them :P

Quote:
Quote:
When neuroscientist Andrew Newberg scanned the brain of ?Kevin?, a staunchatheist, while he was meditating, he made a fascinating discovery. ?Compared with the Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns, whose brains I?d also scanned, Kevin?s brain operated in a significantly different way,? he says.

?He had far more activity in the prefrontal cortex, the area that controls emotional feelings and mediates attention. Kevin?s brain appeared to be functioning in a highly analytical way, even when he was in a resting state.?

?I get attacked by everyone,? says Patrick McNamara, associate professor of neurology at Boston University and author of The Neuroscience of Religious Experience. ?Atheists hate me because I?m saying religion has some basis in the brain and fundamentalist Christians hate me because I?m saying religion is nothing but brain impulses.?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... brain.html
Nothing being bashed on just skepticism also any theology is not really science maybe Neurology is though.
http://godisimaginary.com/ but yes god is indeed imaginary and not science in any way just a man made concept to explain what could not be explained until science came a long![youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OhXQTMOEc[/youtube]


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


guzzle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,298
Location: Close To The Border

31 Oct 2014, 3:41 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
guzzle wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
He needs to exist for us to believe him and also show himself before us.


I used to be of the belief that unless science could provide evidence of a black hole in practical terms rather than by means of mathemathical formula I would believe they existed. I still sort of and sadly enough my maths is not up there to postulate that Qi is no more than the energy of light that lingers in our bodies. After all, energy can't be destroyed can it now? By my logic that would then make my pupil a black hole.

For as much as I need closure I can not ignore the empirical evidence I have encountered in my experiences with energy-based medicine systems that would allow me to rationally dismiss it. So I carry on believing until I come accross experiences that drastically causes me to re-evaluate my beliefs.

It's all about how your brain is wired to me. And science don't have a clue really. Mathemathecal logic don't cut when it comes to the brain as neurons don't abide by the logic of standard maths. So go on, bash neurotheology next. It's an emerging science just like so many before were,

I'd love to know personally what goes on in my brain with regards to my beliefs. It's us and them. And you are probably one of them :P

Quote:
Quote:
When neuroscientist Andrew Newberg scanned the brain of ?Kevin?, a staunchatheist, while he was meditating, he made a fascinating discovery. ?Compared with the Buddhist monks and Franciscan nuns, whose brains I?d also scanned, Kevin?s brain operated in a significantly different way,? he says.

?He had far more activity in the prefrontal cortex, the area that controls emotional feelings and mediates attention. Kevin?s brain appeared to be functioning in a highly analytical way, even when he was in a resting state.?

?I get attacked by everyone,? says Patrick McNamara, associate professor of neurology at Boston University and author of The Neuroscience of Religious Experience. ?Atheists hate me because I?m saying religion has some basis in the brain and fundamentalist Christians hate me because I?m saying religion is nothing but brain impulses.?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... brain.html
Nothing being bashed on just skepticism also any theology is not really science maybe Neurology is though.
http://godisimaginary.com/ but yes god is indeed imaginary and not science in any way just a man made concept to explain what could not be explained until science came a long![youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OhXQTMOEc[/youtube]


What does the vid have to do with neurotheology :?
Psychopharmacology[edit]

Some scientists working in the field hypothesize that the basis of spiritual experience arises in neurological physiology. Speculative suggestions have been made that an increase of N,N-dimethyltryptamine levels in the pineal gland contribute to spiritual experiences.[26][27] Scientific studies confirming this have yet to be published. It has also been suggested that stimulation of the temporal lobe by psychoactive ingredients of 'Magic Mushrooms' mimics religious experiences.[28] This hypothesis has found laboratory validation with respect to psilocybin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology



guzzle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,298
Location: Close To The Border

02 Nov 2014, 5:16 am

Narrator wrote:
I don't get the above relationship. Atheists aren't atheists from birth. And theists aren't theists from birth.
Also, many people are one or the other for a good part of their lives before changing sides.
Did my brain change when I went from theist to atheist in my early 50's? I think not.

The other thing about the above is that it gives no clue about the size of Newberg's samples. If Kevin is his "only" atheist, and his other samples are similarly small, it's a huge stretch to draw any conclusions.


There is a marked difference in brain activity between a meditating monk (without a 'God Helmet')and an atheist that has their brain 'stimulated' with a 'God Helmet' it seems.
Faith in something greater than what we can comprehend might well be hard-wired in some and not in others.
Faith is about trust. My belief over the years has stopped to have expectation and has turned into acceptance of a kind.

Believing is about hope and expectations. I don't hope to go to heaven because I have lived my life according to some book. Or because I did or didn't do something. Matter of fact I have done quite a few things that by religious standards would be enough to send me to eternal damnation. In the end my conscience became my compass and I trusted my gut feeling.
At one point in my life I had hoped to reach immortality from a Taoist viewpoint. But in the end I don't go with the flow if I choose which way to swim . No idea what happens when I die but at best it will be the beginning of a new experience and guzzle will get some well-deserved sleep :lol:
Maybe you turned atheist when your brain stopped searching for hope and answers?

Quote:
If brain function offers insight into how we experience religion, does it say anything about why we do? There is evidence that people with religious faith have longer, healthier lives. This hints at a survival benefit for religious people. Could we have evolved religious belief?

Prof Dawkins (who subscribes to evolution to explain human development) thinks there could be an evolutionary advantage, not to believing in god, but to having a brain with the capacity to believe in god. That such faith exists is a by-product of enhanced intelligence. Prof Ramachandran denies that finding out how the brain reacts to religion negates the value of belief. He feels that brain circuitry like that Persinger and Newberg have identified, could amount to an antenna to make us receptive to god. Bishop Sykes meanwhile, thinks religion has nothing to fear from this neuroscience. Science is about seeking to explain the world around us. For him at least, it can co-exist with faith.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml



Tizerize
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 6 Oct 2014
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 82
Location: England

04 Nov 2014, 9:36 pm

guzzle wrote:
No idea what happens when I die but at best it will be the beginning of a new experience and guzzle will get some well-deserved sleep :lol:


i can go along with that !


Quote:
... There is evidence that people with religious faith have longer, healthier lives. This hints at a survival benefit for religious people. Could we have evolved religious belief?


although faith in a god can reduce death-related fears / stress, which may in turn promote a longer, healthier life, i think the same can be said for non religious spirituality. Of course, having your spiritual beliefs validated by like-minded folk also gives you a sense of community and greatly improves your chance of receiving emotional +/ practical support during the most stressful times of your life ...but i don't think it's the religious faith so much as the spiritual calm that really makes a difference.


_________________
gold glitter falls
like fish food
in my goldfish globe