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Mitch8817
The Equalizer
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 2114
Location: Victoria, Australia
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 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: Religious Questions (have a try) |
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I have a few questions, feel free to try for as many as you can because I've struggled to find any 'good' answers.
I ask why God, in all his great omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence would test us so? He knows the outcome of everything already, why go through all this?
Why would He, in essence, create Satan and Hell? And why would he send us to Hell for eternity for situations beyond our comprehension? Surely the punishment does not fit the crime.
Why would an all-powerful, all-good being create a world in which there is evil?
If God wants us to believe in Him so much, then why make it so difficult? He could certainly do a better and fairer job.
Seeing as God created all life by supposed 'intelligent design', why would He create some with useless features? Flightless birds such as ostriches that have wings for example.
How can freewill and an omniscient God coexist? He knows all that will ever happen so how can we deviate from that already set-out course?
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NobelCynic
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 143
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I have struggled with those questions too Mitch8817 and I don't have all the answers but I do have an opinion that I am willing to share.
I do not see life (at this stage) as a test, I see it as a time to make a choice. If man is indeed free then it is not God who decides if we are good or evil, we make that choice ourselves. Life is like a game of chess where none of the peices are either totally white or totally black save the two kings and they are not on the board; all others are shades of grey and their tints change as the game progresses, some becoming lighter and some becoming darker. The outcome of the game in unimportant; what is important is what shade the peices end up.
I have never accepted the concept that hell is a torture chamber where God will punnish those who refuse to kiss his ass. In the end, we are all going to have to choose to go all the way, one way or the other. Heaven, then, will be a place for those who chose good and hell will be a place for those who chose evil.
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I am not like normal people
I don't even like normal people |
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Danielismyname
Alone around people
Joined: Apr 03, 2007
Posts: 6031
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:39 am Post subject: |
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I don't care
and that's me trying to care |
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Sopho
Emu Egg
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 13905
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| NobelCynic wrote: | | Heaven, then, will be a place for those who chose good and hell will be a place for those who chose evil. |
What about those of us who choose neither? |
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Xenon
Mutant Space Bug
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 1708
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Mitch, you do realize that your questions are good arguments against the existence of God..
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"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." -- Emo Philips |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Religious Questions (have a try) |
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| Mitch8817 wrote: | I have a few questions, feel free to try for as many as you can because I've struggled to find any 'good' answers.
I ask why God, in all his great omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence would test us so? He knows the outcome of everything already, why go through all this?
Why would He, in essence, create Satan and Hell? And why would he send us to Hell for eternity for situations beyond our comprehension? Surely the punishment does not fit the crime.
Why would an all-powerful, all-good being create a world in which there is evil?
If God wants us to believe in Him so much, then why make it so difficult? He could certainly do a better and fairer job.
Seeing as God created all life by supposed 'intelligent design', why would He create some with useless features? Flightless birds such as ostriches that have wings for example.
How can freewill and an omniscient God coexist? He knows all that will ever happen so how can we deviate from that already set-out course? |
I'm not going to weigh in on these because I've been convinced you won't accept satisfactory answers. I think you're challenging God's existence/love, with an attitude-driven, pre-existing, and immutable conclusion that neither His existence nor His love is true. The point of this thread is, therefore, to deny God.
Last edited by Ragtime on Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Xenon wrote: | | Mitch, you do realize that your questions are good arguments against the existence of God.. |
Of course, that's the point. |
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NobelCynic
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 143
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sopho wrote: | | What about those of us who choose neither? |
You may have a point Sopho, maybe the outcome of the game is important. Then if white wins you have to be totally good to go to heaven and everyone else goes to to hell, but if black wins you have to be totally evil to go to hell and everyone else goes to heaven.
Who are you rooting for?
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I am not like normal people
I don't even like normal people |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7888
Location: Home
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| NobelCynic wrote: | | Sopho wrote: | | What about those of us who choose neither? |
You may have a point Sopho, maybe the outcome of the game is important. Then if white wins you have to be totally good to go to heaven and everyone else goes to to hell, but if black wins you have to be totally evil to go to hell and everyone else goes to heaven.
Who are you rooting for? |
You have a good point, and actually is that way
Religious teachings are that if you don't choose the right path (That is believing and worshiping God and doing the rituals according to some religions) you are evil, and you are doomed. |
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Dreamer2
Deinonychus
Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 300
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Questions (have a try) |
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I am totally bored so I give it a try.
| Mitch8817 wrote: | I ask why God, in all his great omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence would test us so? He knows the outcome of everything already, why go through all this?
Why would He, in essence, create Satan and Hell? And why would he send us to Hell for eternity for situations beyond our comprehension? Surely the punishment does not fit the crime. |
So that we would see the difference between good and evil, we humans learn from experience and from our own mistakes.
He would not send us to Hell for eternity, I don’t believe in the immortality of the soul. The soul is mortal and will be destroyed, annihilated, in Hell. Hell is like fire; it destroys everything that is thrown into it. The souls spend different amounts of time in Hell, depending on what they have done.
| Mitch8817 wrote: | | Why would an all-powerful, all-good being create a world in which there is evil? |
Define goodness if you can, and I will tell you if I think God is good.
| Mitch8817 wrote: | | If God wants us to believe in Him so much, then why make it so difficult? He could certainly do a better and fairer job. |
blahblahblah.. such an attitude is very irresponsible.
| Mitch8817 wrote: | | Seeing as God created all life by supposed 'intelligent design', why would He create some with useless features? Flightless birds such as ostriches that have wings for example.? |
He has some divine humour? 
| Mitch8817 wrote: | | How can freewill and an omniscient God coexist? He knows all that will ever happen so how can we deviate from that already set-out course? |
Our will is not entirely free, but our ability to interpret reality is free.
I'm not God's spokesman and I have no reason to pretend to be. God is the one He is, no matter if I understand Him or not. |
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Mitch8817
The Equalizer
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 2114
Location: Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thankyou for your responses everyone.
Nobelcynic, thankyou for that insight. I enjoyed your metaphor and look forward to employing it!
Xenon, yeah I know. But I didn't want to get all smart-arsey about it. That is why the are questions, not challenges. I am truly interested in some answers.
Ragtime, nice attempt to take the easy way out and blame it on me. As I have stated, I am agnostic and therefore thoroughly open-minded to the idea of God(s). I posed these questions for a reason and am genuinely interested in any answers you could provide. If you can. Trying to understand the nature of God in my mind is not denying him. These are serious questions that give me some serious doubt as to the existence of God. If I was to deny him then this thread wouldn't even exist.
Dreamer2, by all-good I am only going by what the Bible is assuring me. Love, benevolence, justice, kindness, compassion etc. etc.
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"Pray...NOW!" -Auron, before Bushido attack |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7888
Location: Home
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Religious Questions (have a try) |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | I'm not going to weigh in on these because I've been convinced you won't accept satisfactory answers. I think you're challenging God's existence/love, with an attitude-driven, pre-existing, and immutable conclusion that neither His existence nor His love is true. The point of this thread is, therefore, to deny God. |
Can I do that for you then? 
I might not do it right, anway 
| Quote: | | I ask why God, in all his great omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence would test us so? He knows the outcome of everything already, why go through all this? |
What kind of test exactly would you mean? What I remember being thought is that God tests us to see how loyal we are to him, and not to choose the easy path of falling into temptation of the Devil, as the Devil is in a constant fight with God to take all people he can from him.
| Quote: | | Why would He, in essence, create Satan and Hell? And why would he send us to Hell for eternity for situations beyond our comprehension? Surely the punishment does not fit the crime. |
God created the angels, and there was one special angel who he loved most, Lucifer, he became jealous of God, and he wanted all the other angels to worship him too, and not only God, and he was expelled from Heaven, went down to earth. (Why earth? I dont know) And he became Satan. After Adam and Eve disobeyed God of eating the forbidden fruit, they were condemn and all of rest humanity to Death. In order to save humanity for the death destiniy, he sent his son Jesus to die for humanity, so every person who follows him and believes in him, won't face eternal death. Everyone else who reject Jesus will no go to heave. There are very distinctions in every religion sect how this is done, some believe you go straight to heaven when you are good, and when you were not that good or if you were not a believer you go to hell. In the catholic doctrine people who were not too good and have commited small sins, they go to the purgatory so they can clean themselves and go to heaven after. Some believe that you die and wake up when Jesus comes again and if you were a believer and good you will go to Heaven, if not you will die in Hell. I remember being thought that Hell was actually a death sentence, a capital punishment when you were burned alive, and die that way. It didn't matter what you did, just the fact of not believing and not doing the religion rituals is enough reason.
A very good reason to convince people to be "good" and to go the church if you ask me.
| Quote: | | Why would an all-powerful, all-good being create a world in which there is evil? |
God gave humanity the greatest gift: Free Will
| Quote: | | If God wants us to believe in Him so much, then why make it so difficult? He could certainly do a better and fairer job. |
He wants us to have Faith, that is the key of making things less difficult. Like the incident when Jesus was walking in water and his disciples saw him, Peter tried to do that, and he did but after a while he was drawning.
| Quote: | | Seeing as God created all life by supposed 'intelligent design', why would He create some with useless features? Flightless birds such as ostriches that have wings for example. |
Everything was perfect in the creation, animals were perfect, there was no need to run scared for your life and to go hunting, every animal had their natural food, after the first sin commited by Adam and Eve, all of these were going wrong, animals were different, the 'law of the jungle' was born as a consequence.
| Quote: | | How can freewill and an omniscient God coexist? He knows all that will ever happen so how can we deviate from that already set-out course? |
He doesn't want puppets or robots to worship him, he wants thinking people to make the choice of their own.
Ok, I just answered. What do you think? |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitch8817 wrote: |
Ragtime, nice attempt to take the easy way out and blame it on me. As I have stated, I am agnostic and therefore thoroughly open-minded to the idea of God(s). I posed these questions for a reason and am genuinely interested in any answers you could provide. If you can. Trying to understand the nature of God in my mind is not denying him. These are serious questions that give me some serious doubt as to the existence of God. If I was to deny him then this thread wouldn't even exist.
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If you had serious questions, you would be doing serious study. Since you mention the Bible's claimed attributes of God, I'm curious: Which books of the Bible have you completely read in the past year in your search for God? WP threads, while thought-provoking indeed, are glorified opinion polls, so I believe that one's search for truth should be primarily based on the sources you question.
I therefore respectfully posit that you're not open to the possibility that the entire Bible is true. The reason is, we've discussed this and some of your question in other threads, and you answered with arrogant insults to my beliefs. I PMed you to explain yourself, but you apparently had no explanation. |
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TheMachine1
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Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9092
Location: 9099 will be my last post...what the hell 9011 will be.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Myself I do not think we have freewill. We have no real choice. That greatly reduces the
role God would play in our lives. Some Christian religious sects even believe in predestination. Those going to heaven in their interpretation of God's will have had their
names written in God's book of life at the begging of time. Though like the weather it maybe too multi-variable/cumulative error prone for a real God to predict the outcome of our lives for other that short time intervals. So while even he may know we have no real choice he still does not know how it will all play out himself and its all an interesting soap opera to him.
To me it seems clear evolution was the means the Earth was seeded regardless if God
played a role in it or not. A key feature of evolution is reproduction with total indifference to suffering. So if I was choosing a religion that I thought God supported it would have to be one that encouraged maximum reproduction and forbid anything that reduced it. So many religion are infact opposed to birth control, abortion, homosexuality
but at the same time approving of marriage of the very young. All with and attitude its righteous to suffer for God.
Last edited by TheMachine1 on Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mitch8817
The Equalizer
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 2114
Location: Victoria, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Greenblue, I'll get back to you 
| Ragtime wrote: | | If you had serious questions, you would be doing serious study. Since you mention the Bible's claimed attributes of God, I'm curious: Which books of the Bible have you completely read in the past year in your search for God? WP threads, while thought-provoking indeed, are glorified opinion polls, so I believe that one's search for truth should be primarily based on the sources you question. |
I am doing some serious study, it is called university homework and it is quite demanding. That is why I sought out others to assist me with these questions in the mean time. Apparently you do not wish to dispense your apparent great and powerful knowledge to a fool such as me. This is quite upsetting.
| Ragtime wrote: | I therefore respectfully posit that you're not open to the possibility that the entire Bible is true.
The reason is, we've discussed this and some of your question in other threads, and you answered with arrogant insults to my beliefs. |
Because your answers are unsatisfactory and arrogant in themselves. Further, I respectfully deny your 'posit'.
| Ragtime wrote: | | I PMed you to explain yourself, but you apparently had no explanation. |
I replied immediately after I read it thankyou.
Basically, if you do not wish to answer my questions then there is no point for you being in this thread. I'm getting the feeling that you can provide no answers anyway.
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