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| Sexism, is it getting better or worse? |
| Sexism is waning (getting better)? |
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| Sexism is waxing (getting worse)? |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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| Author |
Message |
spdjeanne
Phoenix
Joined: May 16, 2007
Posts: 529
Location: Earth
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 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | I think it is same as it ever was.
really, it's just couched in different terms these days. I have never really seen any difference in the way I was treated as a woman when I was young and as a woman as I was old, the only change is then they wanted to **** me and now they don't.
Merle |
I'm curious, do you think that sexism is more or less overt today than it was when you were younger? |
oh, much less overt, because they can bitch about having to be being Politically Correct all they want, they also know what will go over and what won't. But they are really quick to turn it all against you and somehow it is YOU that can't take a joke! ( you know. . the usual bully scene.)
but how they talk about you when you aren't around is the real test. I was in computer technical support both on the phones and in a "Geek Squad" sort of way. After the DOT.COM boom went bust I had to get out of my profession because the gloves were off, and the men finally wanted the whole 'women in the man's business' experiment to be over. The COVERT sexism was so prevelent and fierce I had to get out of the business.
And it wasn't because of my skills, it was because when I was around, they couldn't BS like they wanted to, so they made my life hell until I left.
So I changed careers.
Merle |
Wow, that really sucks! I'm sorry that happened to you.  |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | I think it is same as it ever was.
really, it's just couched in different terms these days. I have never really seen any difference in the way I was treated as a woman when I was young and as a woman as I was old, the only change is then they wanted to **** me and now they don't.
Merle |
I'm curious, do you think that sexism is more or less overt today than it was when you were younger? |
oh, much less overt, because they can bitch about having to be being Politically Correct all they want, they also know what will go over and what won't. But they are really quick to turn it all against you and somehow it is YOU that can't take a joke! ( you know. . the usual bully scene.)
but how they talk about you when you aren't around is the real test. I was in computer technical support both on the phones and in a "Geek Squad" sort of way. After the DOT.COM boom went bust I had to get out of my profession because the gloves were off, and the men finally wanted the whole 'women in the man's business' experiment to be over. The COVERT sexism was so prevelent and fierce I had to get out of the business.
And it wasn't because of my skills, it was because when I was around, they couldn't BS like they wanted to, so they made my life hell until I left.
So I changed careers.
Merle |
I hate to admit it, or but in, but I am curious, etc... HECK, I would love to know how women really think, it would make my life easier, etc.... I have to say. When I was a kid, my first really best friend was a girl. I had respect for her mind also. If I knew where she was now, I would probably be trying to figure out how she thinks as a female. Still, it seemed to me that most boys were more interested in technical/mechanical things than girls were, and seemed to have a mind for it. Maybe that was just my wishful thinking though. I later found that wasn't necessarily true. ALSO, I found that a lot of my strengths and weaknesses fit the stereotypical pattern of AS! It is ironic that you and I may have the same abilities in that area for the same reason. 
In my jobs(Dealing with computers and technical issues), I have only said that approx 1% of all people I interviewed should be hired. ONE was a woman. That might not sound like much. It only represents about 7% of those I said should be hired. BTW in retrospect, she could WELL have been AS. And at least one of the men was! BUT only about .5% of applicants were women!
So the experiment you speak of has, historically, had few female candidates and most candidates(male or female) overall are bad.
As for sexism, it is hard to say. In some places I am sure it has gone down, etc.... If I was openly misogynistic I would probably be hated, etc... even by men. I went to one contract where the manager(who was MARRIED no less) was covertly misogynistic! It was another reason I disliked him, and my replacement, ANOTHER man, said the same.
Quite frankly, I respect women just like men in this area. If they bite off a lot more than they can chew, and/or act with undue hubris, I hate them. That is true whether they are male or female. If they push themselves within their limits and are relatively modest, I respect them!
Steve |
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methinks
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 07, 2007
Age: 40
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | methinks wrote: | In my backwater corner of the world,I have been judged in all sorts of predictable ways,by both men and women,for believing in women as capable human beings.And I have seen nearly as much sexism in women towards men(chauvinism,objectification,degradation)as the reverse,though it is usually less overt and less discussed.And,of course,women can be brutal towards one another.
People are just defensive about roles. |
I was shopping at a local 'discount' grocery store and a older woman was with a younger man trailing her shopping cart. she was argueing with him - he had gone to get charcol briquets and had brought back what he thought was a bargain. the woman said loudly to me and another woman "MEN!, how do they survive with that kind of thinking? " Now, don't get me wrong, I like to complain as much as anyone but there were three little girls in the aisle that was hearing that.
I was in a dimlemma, because normally I would have started a pointed discussion and become rather involved and go far past the point where some poor customer service assistant manager is plucking my sleave and saying " ah. . Ma'am? Ma'am we'd be glad to help you check out now on checkstand 5"
I just didn't think it was right for her to be downtalking A man and HER man, to boot!
What would YOU have done?
Merle |
Honestly?Gave a blank stare and walked away,probably.
Gender differences are bound to baffle everyone from time to time,it's inevitable.I don't pretend that any relationship is ever ideal,or that we will always be nice and happy,sunshine puppies and gumdrops.But that sort of mean dumbness is just way too frustrating.I've happily severed "friendships" with guys who have minds like that.There's no reasoning with -ism beliefs,and I think I'm afraid of people who are truly,fundamentally unreasonable.It's not "politically correct",it's a disgust with certain kinds of thinking and behavior. |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | I think it is same as it ever was.
really, it's just couched in different terms these days. I have never really seen any difference in the way I was treated as a woman when I was young and as a woman as I was old, the only change is then they wanted to **** me and now they don't.
Merle |
I'm curious, do you think that sexism is more or less overt today than it was when you were younger? |
oh, much less overt, because they can bitch about having to be being Politically Correct all they want, they also know what will go over and what won't. But they are really quick to turn it all against you and somehow it is YOU that can't take a joke! ( you know. . the usual bully scene.)
but how they talk about you when you aren't around is the real test. I was in computer technical support both on the phones and in a "Geek Squad" sort of way. After the DOT.COM boom went bust I had to get out of my profession because the gloves were off, and the men finally wanted the whole 'women in the man's business' experiment to be over. The COVERT sexism was so prevelent and fierce I had to get out of the business.
And it wasn't because of my skills, it was because when I was around, they couldn't BS like they wanted to, so they made my life hell until I left.
So I changed careers.
Merle |
Wow, that really sucks! I'm sorry that happened to you. |
spdJeanne. . . it didn't just happen to ME! It happened and is still happening with other women, too! I have to admit I am somthing of an iconoclast, but other women either have to grin and bear it ( I think of the receptionist in the American and British tv show "The Office") or they turn into what is harassing them.
sad, really, but damn. . .
Merle |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| SteveK wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | I think it is same as it ever was.
really, it's just couched in different terms these days. I have never really seen any difference in the way I was treated as a woman when I was young and as a woman as I was old, the only change is then they wanted to **** me and now they don't.
Merle |
I'm curious, do you think that sexism is more or less overt today than it was when you were younger? |
oh, much less overt, because they can bitch about having to be being Politically Correct all they want, they also know what will go over and what won't. But they are really quick to turn it all against you and somehow it is YOU that can't take a joke! ( you know. . the usual bully scene.)
but how they talk about you when you aren't around is the real test. I was in computer technical support both on the phones and in a "Geek Squad" sort of way. After the DOT.COM boom went bust I had to get out of my profession because the gloves were off, and the men finally wanted the whole 'women in the man's business' experiment to be over. The COVERT sexism was so prevalent and fierce I had to get out of the business.
And it wasn't because of my skills, it was because when I was around, they couldn't BS like they wanted to, so they made my life hell until I left.
So I changed careers.
Merle |
I hate to admit it, or but in, but I am curious, etc... HECK, I would love to know how women really think, it would make my life easier, etc.... I have to say. When I was a kid, my first really best friend was a girl. I had respect for her mind also. If I knew where she was now, I would probably be trying to figure out how she thinks as a female. Still, it seemed to me that most boys were more interested in technical/mechanical things than girls were, and seemed to have a mind for it. Maybe that was just my wishful thinking though. I later found that wasn't necessarily true. ALSO, I found that a lot of my strengths and weaknesses fit the stereotypical pattern of AS! It is ironic that you and I may have the same abilities in that area for the same reason.
In my jobs(Dealing with computers and technical issues), I have only said that approx 1% of all people I interviewed should be hired. ONE was a woman. That might not sound like much. It only represents about 7% of those I said should be hired. BTW in retrospect, she could WELL have been AS. And at least one of the men was! BUT only about .5% of applicants were women!
So the experiment you speak of has, historically, had few female candidates and most candidates(male or female) overall are bad.
As for sexism, it is hard to say. In some places I am sure it has gone down, etc.... If I was openly misogynistic I would probably be hated, etc... even by men. I went to one contract where the manager(who was MARRIED no less) was covertly misogynistic! It was another reason I disliked him, and my replacement, ANOTHER man, said the same.
Quite frankly, I respect women just like men in this area. If they bite off a lot more than they can chew, and/or act with undue hubris, I hate them. That is true whether they are male or female. If they push themselves within their limits and are relatively modest, I respect them!
Steve |
hello Steve,
Please understand. I didn't say they didn't RESPECT me, as a person AND as an engineer. I felt my skills were respected because, frankly, I was a kick ass systems engineer. I would shock these guys by whipping out my own screwdriver and popping the top of the server or what ever - see, I got my training at Gateway 2000 back in the day and we all had to do two weeks on the production floor every 6 months, rotating between laptop and desktops, so I relished the freedom it gave me to check out the hardware.
However, the respect for me is probably what drove me away, eventually. Most men have not had women peers. Women they knew were authority figures, Mothers, Grandmothers, Aunts Schoolteachers, principals, that sort of thing. And since I was a good twenty years older than they were (that Aspie thing, where you don't recognize age appropriateness) I must have been rather formidable.
I got into the habit of being more like them than they were, if they were listening to music, I would encourage them to "pump it up!" I kept current with the games and the tricky installations ( BEFORE plug and pray) and I remember knowing how to parse a PCMCIA card in DOS where the man on the phone REFUSED to listen to me because " I talked with three guys and THEY didn't know what was wrong, and now I am supposed to believe a GIRL can do it when they couldn't ? ( and it was right, too, remember that Aspie trait of remembering trivia? well. . ..)
so, it was when they wanted to 'let their hair down' and do what I call their 'fart and belch' time that they objected to me being there - probably because they knew how disgusting they were being and really didn't want to have their opinions or how they were 'with the guys' monitored, no matter how hip the old lady was.
your milage may vary,
Merle |
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Sopho
Emu Egg
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 13905
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| They forced me to wear a skirt in school. |
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greenblue
¸.·´´¯`··.¸.·´
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 7888
Location: Home
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| Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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It seems to me that sexism was worse before than it is today, but still exists, sadly, from both sides.
I hate male sexist comments and jokes, not only degrading women but also degrading other men who don't fall to the category of being a "man", which I was a victim, including some women telling me I was a "pussy".
Women dress in a way, they wear dresses, skirts, pink or purple colors, make up, men are dressed differently. Where does it come from? the difference in how a man must dress and how a women must dress in order to get attention from men. Where does that come from? Objectivly speaking.
In children I often see how they are treated differently according to their sex, a girl gets dolls and playhouse at birthdays, a boy gets action figures and action toys. Still I see today that difference.
Female sexism is as bad as well, especially when it comes to legal issues. |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | SteveK wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | | spdjeanne wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | I think it is same as it ever was.
really, it's just couched in different terms these days. I have never really seen any difference in the way I was treated as a woman when I was young and as a woman as I was old, the only change is then they wanted to **** me and now they don't.
Merle |
I'm curious, do you think that sexism is more or less overt today than it was when you were younger? |
oh, much less overt, because they can bitch about having to be being Politically Correct all they want, they also know what will go over and what won't. But they are really quick to turn it all against you and somehow it is YOU that can't take a joke! ( you know. . the usual bully scene.)
but how they talk about you when you aren't around is the real test. I was in computer technical support both on the phones and in a "Geek Squad" sort of way. After the DOT.COM boom went bust I had to get out of my profession because the gloves were off, and the men finally wanted the whole 'women in the man's business' experiment to be over. The COVERT sexism was so prevalent and fierce I had to get out of the business.
And it wasn't because of my skills, it was because when I was around, they couldn't BS like they wanted to, so they made my life hell until I left.
So I changed careers.
Merle |
I hate to admit it, or but in, but I am curious, etc... HECK, I would love to know how women really think, it would make my life easier, etc.... I have to say. When I was a kid, my first really best friend was a girl. I had respect for her mind also. If I knew where she was now, I would probably be trying to figure out how she thinks as a female. Still, it seemed to me that most boys were more interested in technical/mechanical things than girls were, and seemed to have a mind for it. Maybe that was just my wishful thinking though. I later found that wasn't necessarily true. ALSO, I found that a lot of my strengths and weaknesses fit the stereotypical pattern of AS! It is ironic that you and I may have the same abilities in that area for the same reason.
In my jobs(Dealing with computers and technical issues), I have only said that approx 1% of all people I interviewed should be hired. ONE was a woman. That might not sound like much. It only represents about 7% of those I said should be hired. BTW in retrospect, she could WELL have been AS. And at least one of the men was! BUT only about .5% of applicants were women!
So the experiment you speak of has, historically, had few female candidates and most candidates(male or female) overall are bad.
As for sexism, it is hard to say. In some places I am sure it has gone down, etc.... If I was openly misogynistic I would probably be hated, etc... even by men. I went to one contract where the manager(who was MARRIED no less) was covertly misogynistic! It was another reason I disliked him, and my replacement, ANOTHER man, said the same.
Quite frankly, I respect women just like men in this area. If they bite off a lot more than they can chew, and/or act with undue hubris, I hate them. That is true whether they are male or female. If they push themselves within their limits and are relatively modest, I respect them!
Steve |
hello Steve,
Please understand. I didn't say they didn't RESPECT me, as a person AND as an engineer. I felt my skills were respected because, frankly, I was a kick ass systems engineer. I would shock these guys by whipping out my own screwdriver and popping the top of the server or what ever - see, I got my training at Gateway 2000 back in the day and we all had to do two weeks on the production floor every 6 months, rotating between laptop and desktops, so I relished the freedom it gave me to check out the hardware.
However, the respect for me is probably what drove me away, eventually. Most men have not had women peers. Women they knew were authority figures, Mothers, Grandmothers, Aunts Schoolteachers, principals, that sort of thing. And since I was a good twenty years older than they were (that Aspie thing, where you don't recognize age appropriateness) I must have been rather formidable.
I got into the habit of being more like them than they were, if they were listening to music, I would encourage them to "pump it up!" I kept current with the games and the tricky installations ( BEFORE plug and pray) and I remember knowing how to parse a PCMCIA card in DOS where the man on the phone REFUSED to listen to me because " I talked with three guys and THEY didn't know what was wrong, and now I am supposed to believe a GIRL can do it when they couldn't ? ( and it was right, too, remember that Aspie trait of remembering trivia? well. . ..)
so, it was when they wanted to 'let their hair down' and do what I call their 'fart and belch' time that they objected to me being there - probably because they knew how disgusting they were being and really didn't want to have their opinions or how they were 'with the guys' monitored, no matter how hip the old lady was.
your milage may vary,
Merle |
Believe it or not, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from! I have BEEN THERE! I even mentioned it several times here before. People used to belittle me, and not listen, because I was only a kid! How could I know more than an adult? Even ones over 5 TIMES my age? When I was in highschool, I watched in AMAZMENT as a couple idiots, that were probably over twice my age, took a LONG time to install a ballast. They wouldn't listen to me even though I knew how it worked, and could read the pictoral on the ballast! Some people are just idiots. HEY, when I was a little kid, observation of my "peers" indicated an apparent tendency. I acted accordingly for a time. I guess some people never logically grow up.
As for the fact they didn't want you to be there for belching, etc? I never did that, and am embarrased at the prospect. It is bad enough when they do it. There is a belief, or hope of a belief, about a certain decorum. That requires keeping things away from "mixed company". In a way, it is out of respect for women! As for the age appropriatness? That is just AS and personality.
Steve |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve wrote: | | As for the fact they didn't want you to be there for belching, etc? I never did that, and am embarrased at the prospect. It is bad enough when they do it. There is a belief, or hope of a belief, about a certain decorum. That requires keeping things away from "mixed company". In a way, it is out of respect for women! As for the age appropriatness? That is just AS and personality. |
I think you understand what I meant by the 'belch and fart' time. They might not have actually done either of those two things, but they would be just as frank about how they felt about this woman's attributes, or that woman's attitude. or how someone in management could 'eat their shorts'. you re right they didn't want to do that in mixed company, and perhaps they 'respected' the ladies enough to not include them however it was also team building time and when you are not included then you are just not part of the team.
It wasn't like the ladies were withdrawing after dinner to leave the gentlemen with thier brandy and cigars. It dictated who was in and who was out, and I was out by virtue of my gender.
That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | Steve wrote: | | As for the fact they didn't want you to be there for belching, etc? I never did that, and am embarrased at the prospect. It is bad enough when they do it. There is a belief, or hope of a belief, about a certain decorum. That requires keeping things away from "mixed company". In a way, it is out of respect for women! As for the age appropriatness? That is just AS and personality. |
I think you understand what I meant by the 'belch and fart' time. They might not have actually done either of those two things, but they would be just as frank about how they felt about this woman's attributes, or that woman's attitude. or how someone in management could 'eat their shorts'. you re right they didn't want to do that in mixed company, and perhaps they 'respected' the ladies enough to not include them however it was also team building time and when you are not included then you are just not part of the team.
It wasn't like the ladies were withdrawing after dinner to leave the gentlemen with thier brandy and cigars. It dictated who was in and who was out, and I was out by virtue of my gender.
That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle |
Believe it or not, I have the *****SAME***** problem! I am not social, and not interested in sports. Eventually, I don't even get INVITED to events. So I know where you are coming from. I agree with what you are saying. It isn't just SEX discrimination though! BTW I am white and male. Some BLACKS have had better input than I have. Some WOMEN have!
Steve |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle
Believe it or not, I have the *****SAME***** problem! I am not social, dont smoke, and am not interested in sports. Eventually, I don't even get INVITED to events. So I know where you are coming from. I agree with what you are saying. It isn't just SEX discrimination though!
I should change that to gender discrimination, Non inclusion
but that does not even cover it, unless you being included as a 'pussy' gives you a pass into my gender. I think it might be concidered simply 'not cool' discrimination, and ergo, non inclusion.
Because we bum them out, Steve. We observe the truthabouit them and frankly, they can't handle the truth! When we stand there, with our bare face hanging out - reflecting our utter disbelief of their behaviour is when it starts. They don't want to know the Emporor doesn't have any clothes on and they don't care! We sorta force the issue by our silent or not so silent witness to their behaviour.
and they are not comfortable with that. so we are 'not cool' and we either busy our selves with our own interests or press our noses against the pane.
I like politics simply because your vote is your vote and they are happy to have it.
Merle |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Sopho wrote: | | They forced me to wear a skirt in school. |
i was forced to wear a sign that said "I Bite" until I was in second grade.
I was eight before the leather 'outside harness' finally broke.
Merle |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle
Believe it or not, I have the *****SAME***** problem! I am not social, dont smoke, and am not interested in sports. Eventually, I don't even get INVITED to events. So I know where you are coming from. I agree with what you are saying. It isn't just SEX discrimination though!
I should change that to gender discrimination, Non inclusion
but that does not even cover it, unless you being included as a 'pussy' gives you a pass into my gender. I think it might be concidered simply 'not cool' discrimination, and ergo, non inclusion.
Because we bum them out, Steve. We observe the truthabouit them and frankly, they can't handle the truth! When we stand there, with our bare face hanging out - reflecting our utter disbelief of their behaviour is when it starts. They don't want to know the Emporor doesn't have any clothes on and they don't care! We sorta force the issue by our silent or not so silent witness to their behaviour.
and they are not comfortable with that. so we are 'not cool' and we either busy our selves with our own interests or press our noses against the pane.
I like politics simply because your vote is your vote and they are happy to have it.
Merle |
It was hard to understand your last post.
OH, I am happy with my gender(sorry for using the word SEX before). I certainly have nothing against women in any way, but I am male, and happy with who I am. I once met a really ANGRY woman that spoke of how attributing feminine attributes/etc... to a male was a insult. SO WHAT? The SAME is true of male attributes/etc... to females. HEY, I like certain looks, actions, and even COLORS on women that would REPULSE me if I saw them in/on males. It is hard to explain, and some women just don't understand it. For the record though, I don't insult people like that, and don't agree with it.
I wasn't trying to say I understood everything about women, etc... I wish I DID know everything! I just simply have some of the same social/business/economic problems some women say are solely due to their gender. I COULD act! Sometimes I have for a SHORT time to avoid bad questions. I could maybe LEARN this garbage, but WHY?
Yeah, I don't get the deal about sports and society. One rule, for example, is that, if you move to an area with a given team, you HAVE to support THAT team, etc... EVEN if everyone admits it is a BAD team. People have KILLED people breaking that rule, harassed players and coaches for failing, etc... They gather around to vicariously cheer for a team and, if you support it and say the right things, you are IN! One failure, and you are an outsider. And they speak against AUTISTIC interests!
Steve |
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sinsboldly
Free Range Aspie
Joined: Nov 22, 2006
Age: 58
Posts: 8232
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| SteveK wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle
Believe it or not, I have the *****SAME***** problem! I am not social, dont smoke, and am not interested in sports. Eventually, I don't even get INVITED to events. So I know where you are coming from. I agree with what you are saying. It isn't just SEX discrimination though!
I should change that to gender discrimination, Non inclusion
but that does not even cover it, unless you being included as a 'pussy' gives you a pass into my gender. I think it might be concidered simply 'not cool' discrimination, and ergo, non inclusion.
Because we bum them out, Steve. We observe the truthabouit them and frankly, they can't handle the truth! When we stand there, with our bare face hanging out - reflecting our utter disbelief of their behaviour is when it starts. They don't want to know the Emporor doesn't have any clothes on and they don't care! We sorta force the issue by our silent or not so silent witness to their behaviour.
and they are not comfortable with that. so we are 'not cool' and we either busy our selves with our own interests or press our noses against the pane.
I like politics simply because your vote is your vote and they are happy to have it.
Merle |
It was hard to understand your last post.
OH, I am happy with my gender(sorry for using the word SEX before). I certainly have nothing against women in any way, but I am male, and happy with who I am. I once met a really ANGRY woman that spoke of how attributing feminine attributes/etc... to a male was a insult. SO WHAT? The SAME is true of male attributes/etc... to females. HEY, I like certain looks, actions, and even COLORS on women that would REPULSE me if I saw them in/on males. It is hard to explain, and some women just don't understand it. For the record though, I don't insult people like that, and don't agree with it.
I wasn't trying to say I understood everything about women, etc... I wish I DID know everything! I just simply have some of the same social/business/economic problems some women say are solely due to their gender. I COULD act! Sometimes I have for a SHORT time to avoid bad questions. I could maybe LEARN this garbage, but WHY?
Yeah, I don't get the deal about sports and society. One rule, for example, is that, if you move to an area with a given team, you HAVE to support THAT team, etc... EVEN if everyone admits it is a BAD team. People have KILLED people breaking that rule, harassed players and coaches for failing, etc... They gather around to vicariously cheer for a team and, if you support it and say the right things, you are IN! One failure, and you are an outsider. And they speak against AUTISTIC interests!
Steve |
Steve,
I agree, one failure and they don't give anyone a second chance unless they prove themselves in some other way. I was trying to discuss WHY they won't give us a second chance. It had NOTHING to do with Gender of Sex of who is doing it. Nothing to do with how you relate to women, or even men.
It is what our autism "does" in their social situation. We become a wrong note in their social song, so to speak. When we sit in on one of their social situations, they can just feel how WE think about their shenannagans and it is a sour note to them. We point out to them by our unconcious body language and facial expressions how shallow, callous and stupid we think they are being. And they don't appreciate it and want to exclude us so they can continue with out having to justify or deny their actions.
So it really has nothing to do with our gender, or sex, or even our 'coolness' and has everything to do with how THEY feel about our just being there.
I hope this has clarified my last post, Steve, I enjoy this discussion with you.
Merle |
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SteveK
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 20, 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| sinsboldly wrote: | | SteveK wrote: | | sinsboldly wrote: | That is the basis of sex discrimination. Non inclusion.
Merle
Believe it or not, I have the *****SAME***** problem! I am not social, dont smoke, and am not interested in sports. Eventually, I don't even get INVITED to events. So I know where you are coming from. I agree with what you are saying. It isn't just SEX discrimination though!
I should change that to gender discrimination, Non inclusion
but that does not even cover it, unless you being included as a 'pussy' gives you a pass into my gender. I think it might be concidered simply 'not cool' discrimination, and ergo, non inclusion.
Because we bum them out, Steve. We observe the truthabouit them and frankly, they can't handle the truth! When we stand there, with our bare face hanging out - reflecting our utter disbelief of their behaviour is when it starts. They don't want to know the Emporor doesn't have any clothes on and they don't care! We sorta force the issue by our silent or not so silent witness to their behaviour.
and they are not comfortable with that. so we are 'not cool' and we either busy our selves with our own interests or press our noses against the pane.
I like politics simply because your vote is your vote and they are happy to have it.
Merle |
It was hard to understand your last post.
OH, I am happy with my gender(sorry for using the word SEX before). I certainly have nothing against women in any way, but I am male, and happy with who I am. I once met a really ANGRY woman that spoke of how attributing feminine attributes/etc... to a male was a insult. SO WHAT? The SAME is true of male attributes/etc... to females. HEY, I like certain looks, actions, and even COLORS on women that would REPULSE me if I saw them in/on males. It is hard to explain, and some women just don't understand it. For the record though, I don't insult people like that, and don't agree with it.
I wasn't trying to say I understood everything about women, etc... I wish I DID know everything! I just simply have some of the same social/business/economic problems some women say are solely due to their gender. I COULD act! Sometimes I have for a SHORT time to avoid bad questions. I could maybe LEARN this garbage, but WHY?
Yeah, I don't get the deal about sports and society. One rule, for example, is that, if you move to an area with a given team, you HAVE to support THAT team, etc... EVEN if everyone admits it is a BAD team. People have KILLED people breaking that rule, harassed players and coaches for failing, etc... They gather around to vicariously cheer for a team and, if you support it and say the right things, you are IN! One failure, and you are an outsider. And they speak against AUTISTIC interests!
Steve |
Steve,
I agree, one failure and they don't give anyone a second chance unless they prove themselves in some other way. I was trying to discuss WHY they won't give us a second chance. It had NOTHING to do with Gender of Sex of who is doing it. Nothing to do with how you relate to women, or even men.
It is what our autism "does" in their social situation. We become a wrong note in their social song, so to speak. When we sit in on one of their social situations, they can just feel how WE think about their shenannagans and it is a sour note to them. We point out to them by our unconcious body language and facial expressions how shallow, callous and stupid we think they are being. And they don't appreciate it and want to exclude us so they can continue with out having to justify or deny their actions.
So it really has nothing to do with our gender, or sex, or even our 'coolness' and has everything to do with how THEY feel about our just being there.
I hope this has clarified my last post, Steve, I enjoy this discussion with you.
Merle |
You're certainly right about that! Out my window I see male robins every year chirping up a storm, trying to attract a mate. I've likened a lot of what I do to experiments they have done with birds to change their songs. The birds end up not relating and can't get a mate. 
I don't know how much my "body language" says to them, but I didn't have the interest to learn spanish, history, etc... ****WHY**** would I even attempt it with teams, especially when they change and I move so much? Frankly, if I was going to spend that much time, I could spend it in many BETTER places.
So I end up just missing even a chance.
BTW THANKS for the compliment! I love talking to you also.
Steve |
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