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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: Gripe One: Free Will |
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From much feedback on this website and elsewhere, I'll posit that man's chief gripe with the Christian God is, at its core, that He allows everyone to make their own choices while generally not curtailing the consequences of those choices.
In other words, He lets things happen naturally too much.
Agree or disagree? |
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dustbowlrefugee
Toucan
Joined: May 15, 2007
Posts: 256
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| My chief gripe with Christianity is that it is based around the belief of a God. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dustbowlrefugee wrote: | | My chief gripe with Christianity is that it is based around the belief of a God. |
What's your chief gripe with belief in a God? |
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calandale
Stellar's Jay
Joined: Mar 10, 2007
Posts: 15131
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Disagree. Doesn't seem possible, in
the light of an omnipotent and omniscient
God. Choosing NOT to act, while knowing
the consequences of that choice is as
culpable as directly intervening.
I (foolishly perhaps) believe in free will,
and cannot (regardless of the attempts
by true scholars of the faith) reconcile
it with such a being. |
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NobelCynic
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 143
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Yes and no. I don't think gripe is the right word, it is more a stumbling block to believing in him.
The concepts of power and freedom are diametricly opposed to each other. Power is the ability to impose your will on someone else and freedom is the ability to do your own will. Many people desire freedom for themselves and power over others to restrict their freedom to those choices that they would approve of. The idea that there could be a God who has ablolute power and more respect for freedom than those who have not, is just too much for some people.
_________________
I am not like normal people
I don't even like normal people |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| calandale wrote: | Disagree. Doesn't seem possible, in
the light of an omnipotent and omniscient
God. Choosing NOT to act, while knowing
the consequences of that choice is as
culpable as directly intervening.
I (foolishly perhaps) believe in free will,
and cannot (regardless of the attempts
by true scholars of the faith) reconcile
it with such a being. |
Well, of course my position would imply God's frequent inaction serving a greater good -- one beyond our knowledge. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| NobelCynic wrote: | Yes and no. I don't think gripe is the right word, it is more a stumbling block to believing in him.
The concepts of power and freedom are diametricly opposed to each other. Power is the ability to impose your will on someone else and freedom is the ability to do your own will. Many people desire freedom for themselves and power over others to restrict their freedom to those choices that they would approve of. The idea that there could be a God who has ablolute power and more respect for freedom than those who have not, is just too much for some people. |
True. Such a balance of extreme power permitting this extreme freedom would be awesome to try to comprehend if it were true. And I used "gripe" because the general concensus on WP includes a "God is an asshole if He exists, so I wouldn't worship Him if He did" clause. |
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calandale
Stellar's Jay
Joined: Mar 10, 2007
Posts: 15131
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | calandale wrote: | Disagree. Doesn't seem possible, in
the light of an omnipotent and omniscient
God. Choosing NOT to act, while knowing
the consequences of that choice is as
culpable as directly intervening.
I (foolishly perhaps) believe in free will,
and cannot (regardless of the attempts
by true scholars of the faith) reconcile
it with such a being. |
Well, of course my position would imply God's frequent inaction serving a greater good -- one beyond our knowledge. |
Still doesn't give humanity free will.
AND
It would seem that God is constrained by
only choosing right, such that he has no
free will either. This is absolutely unacceptable
to me. I cannot be such a fatalist. |
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frankwah
Velociraptor
Joined: Jun 06, 2007
Posts: 453
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Gripe One: Free Will |
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| Ragtime wrote: | From much feedback on this website and elsewhere, I'll posit that man's chief gripe with the Christian God is, at its core, that He allows everyone to make their own choices while generally not curtailing the consequences of those choices.
In other words, He lets things happen naturally too much.
Agree or disagree? |
I don't have gripes with or hate the Christian God any more than I hate any being that doesn't exist.
But yeah, if I believed he existed, I would be a bit angry at him for first creating us the way we are, knowing fully well beforehand all of the things we do (do good things, do bad things, do things that don't matter) and then punishing us for doing the evil things he made us do. You see, it's not possible for there to be free will. Break it down.
1. God makes us the way we are.
2. God knows everything. He knows everything that happened in the past, everything that's happening now and everything that will happen in the future.
3. Therefore when God created us the way he did, he did it fully knowing that we would do evil things. He created us knowing everything that we would do. If he didn't know what we would "choose" to do, then he's not all knowing and all powerful.
4. After we do the evil things, he sends us to hellfire.
Makes a lot of sense, right? 
Of course, that's not what I believe. I don't believe in God and I don't believe we are free. Free will is an illusion. We do what we must do. Ultimately, the laws of physics makes free will impossible. After all, the brain, which makes us able to think, perceive and "choose" and have Asperger's, is as subject to the laws of physics as any other hunk of matter in this universe. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| calandale wrote: | Disagree. Doesn't seem possible, in
the light of an omnipotent and omniscient
God. Choosing NOT to act, while knowing
the consequences of that choice is as
culpable as directly intervening.
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Is there -- certainly -- no dignity to man's free will that would decrease the culpability of God not interfering? |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| calandale wrote: |
It would seem that God is constrained by
only choosing right, such that he has no
free will either. This is absolutely unacceptable
to me. I cannot be such a fatalist. |
Ya, "cannot" is a difficult term to define in this context, but to save theoretical debate, assume 1. God does have free will; and 2. His will is quite varied within right, while never deviating to wrong. |
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Ragtime
Legal Eagle Eye
Joined: Nov 03, 2006
Age: 29
Posts: 7873
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: Re: Gripe One: Free Will |
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| frankwah wrote: | | Ragtime wrote: | From much feedback on this website and elsewhere, I'll posit that man's chief gripe with the Christian God is, at its core, that He allows everyone to make their own choices while generally not curtailing the consequences of those choices.
In other words, He lets things happen naturally too much.
Agree or disagree? |
I don't have gripes with or hate the Christian God any more than I hate any being that doesn't exist.
But yeah, if I believed he existed, I would be a bit angry at him for first creating us the way we are, knowing fully well beforehand all of the things we do (do good things, do bad things, do things that don't matter) and then punishing us for doing the evil things he made us do. You see, it's not possible for there to be free will. Break it down.
1. God makes us the way we are.
2. God knows everything. He knows everything that happened in the past, everything that's happening now and everything that will happen in the future.
3. Therefore when God created us the way he did, he did it fully knowing that we would do evil things. He created us knowing everything that we would do. If he didn't know what we would "choose" to do, then he's not all knowing and all powerful.
4. After we do the evil things, he sends us to hellfire.
Makes a lot of sense, right?
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Suppose you set up a camera to film a bunch of random people walking around for a hour. Further suppose that you're not monitoring this session yourself. You press stop on the camera after an hour. Then, you rewind the tape only 15 seconds' worth, and you then play back those final 15 seconds of the tape for yourself to view. In this footage, you notice a guy in a yellow shirt feeing two ducks in the lower-right corner of the screen. Then, naturally, you hop in your time machine, and travel to minus 1 hour. You exit your incredible machine, and proceed to a place from which you may view the area where the yellow-clad man will feed the ducks in an hour.
Question: Are you making the man feed the ducks?
No more, then, is God making us do what we do.
_________________
I shaved off my goatee so that my wife could read my facial expressions better. She feels much happier and closer to me now. (Just thought I'd share this advice for any other bearded members.) |
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calandale
Stellar's Jay
Joined: Mar 10, 2007
Posts: 15131
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | calandale wrote: |
It would seem that God is constrained by
only choosing right, such that he has no
free will either. This is absolutely unacceptable
to me. I cannot be such a fatalist. |
Ya, "cannot" is a difficult term to define in this context, but to save theoretical debate, assume 1. God does have free will; and 2. His will is quite varied within right, while never deviating to wrong. |
I'll assume nothing of the sort, without good reason.
But, what you seem to be advocating is that WHATEVER
God wills is right, simply by virtue of this inscrutable
'goodness,' which we can take only through faith (and
we had this out before - your belief REQUIRES faith first).
Now, this is as though one says that what is, is best,
regardless of any possible appearance of morality. A
God with such rules, is merely a superfluous abstraction.
I doubt that this is what you are seeking. |
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calandale
Stellar's Jay
Joined: Mar 10, 2007
Posts: 15131
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | calandale wrote: | Disagree. Doesn't seem possible, in
the light of an omnipotent and omniscient
God. Choosing NOT to act, while knowing
the consequences of that choice is as
culpable as directly intervening.
|
Is there -- certainly -- no dignity to man's free will that would decrease the culpability of God not interfering? |
I'm denying that man HAS any free will under your
formulation. God knows, and does not act. Thus,
God is choosing the greater good, from His view,
and selfishly allowing others to suffer. Perhaps
MY view of the good is better, and thus it should
be placed above this one. Without some external
judge, of course God is merely a tyrant, enforcing
His own desires. |
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NobelCynic
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Age: 60
Posts: 143
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Ragtime wrote: | | NobelCynic wrote: | | The concepts of power and freedom are diametricly opposed to each other. Power is the ability to impose your will on someone else and freedom is the ability to do your own will. Many people desire freedom for themselves and power over others to restrict their freedom to those choices that they would approve of. The idea that there could be a God who has ablolute power and more respect for freedom than those who have not, is just too much for some people. |
True. Such a balance of extreme power permitting this extreme freedom would be awesome to try to comprehend if it were true. |
Should I take that to mean that you don't think it is true?
_________________
I am not like normal people
I don't even like normal people |
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