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paolo
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 1047
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: Watson, intelligence and autism |
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It seems now certain that intelligence is tied to genetic inheritance, but to state that Africans are (for their genetic dotage) less intelligent than Caucasians is a very silly thing to say, at least for two reasons. On is that there are no “Africans” as a homogeneous group, as there are no Caucasians either in the same sense . Second what is “intelligence”? Watsons seems to believe that intelligence has to do with math and, perhaps logic. If this were true, an idiot savant would be more intelligent than some sage intuitive person. Perhaps Watson himself seems to approach the stereotype of the idiot savant more than that of a delicate, intuitive person.
In his discovery (with Crick) of the double helix he was very much indebted to a woman: Rosalind Franklin, who died 38, two years before the Nobel assignment. He did not admit publicly of this debt and look how she talks of her. "She was just awkward," he said. "I think she was partially autistic." Clever people, he said, especially those with high mathematical abilities, often have autistic traits. He also says "I never had an exceptional mind – I certainly wasn't in the same league as Francis [Crick]. I think I've succeeded more by learning what needed to be done next, and getting help in getting it done. I was just very focused and impatient." And ambitious and ungrateful with Rosalind Franklin, whom he also attacked for her ugliness.
So what about Africans' intelligence? Not autistic enough? |
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BazoQ
Tufted Titmouse
Joined: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to remember that autism is pretty well evenly distributed throughout humanity...
African, Asian...it doesn't matter. |
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Zarathustra
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 06, 2007
Age: 101
Posts: 571
Location: In orbit
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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So, Watson was rude, dumb and got others to do the work... "Let a man's name be his deeds"
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"No matter what the facts are, only the Truth matters" |
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Griff
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rudeness is honorable and should be encouraged. Foolishness and sloth warrent castration. |
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Phagocyte
Low-Functioning NT
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1602
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ZARATHUSTRA wrote: | | So, Watson was rude, dumb and got others to do the work... "Let a man's name be his deeds" |
No...James Watson is a brilliant man who made great strides in the field of genetics.
...What makes it all the more unbelievable why he makes these unbacked statements on race. |
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edal
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 759
Location: Gyor, Hungary
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
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Joybob
Velociraptor
Joined: Sep 23, 2007
Posts: 460
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| edal wrote: | Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
Those issues are easily attributed to socio-economic difference not race per-se. |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| edal wrote: | Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
Here are two:
Benjamin Banneker.
George Washington Carver (A hero of mine.)
I would also suggest that doing abstract scientific work is great for long term economic prospects (of the individual and the society), but when a person is worried about their next meal, investments in such theoretical matters are a luxury that is usually dispensed with.
>> Here's a page on African American Scientists of Note. <<
>> Here's a longer list << |
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mmaestro
Phoenix
Joined: Aug 07, 2007
Posts: 522
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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First thing to do, I think, is to look at what Watson actually said (or is at least reported to have said - there's no recording, and his comments where within a piece of prose that wasn't presented as a word for word interview, so it's kind of hard to know). Here's the link. And the relevant passage: | Quote: | | He says that he is “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really”, and I know that this “hot potato” is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”. He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level”. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so”. |
There's a mix of good and bad, in there. I've not seen a study that I'd consider credible that shows that blacks are less intelligent than whites. His comment on people who have to deal with black employees is particularly bad, because as a scientist he should know well that relying on anecdote is unreliable. In the book Blink, on the subject of people's abilities to do snap judgements, the scientist author tests at one point people's reactions to black vs. white people, and finds that all his test subjects react as if they believe the whites are more trustworthy than the blacks. He tests himself, and discovers his reactions are the same - he's a rascist on an unconscious level. And he is an African-American. If, as seems likely, none of us are able to get past racial stereotypes, I'm afraid that I can't accept that any controls for socio-economic status, education, etc. might be adequate in a study on intelligence and race.
Still, Watson's point on the fact that just because we wish we were all equal doesn't make it so is one well made. But there's little to be done about it. Believing that any study on the subject would be futile, I can't support there ever being one funded, and even if it were possible to control for all these factors, I think a study would be a dangerous thing. What if you discovered that blacks are less intelligent than whites? Everyone's an individual, but as with almost any generalization, you'd create a situation where everyone would have that judgement passed on them. Given the difficulties that blacks already have, giving rascists a justification for discrimination would be a terrible wrong, IMO.
Er... I think I digressed somewhat, there.
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Last edited by mmaestro on Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mmaestro wrote: |
Er... I think I digressed somewhat, there. |
Not at all. An informative, rational discussion. I think Watson made some faulty generalizations that were based more on culture or personal experience than on genetics.
We make jokes, but don't really consider blonde women to be less intelligent. We talk about fiery red-heads, but generally get beyond that when dealing with individuals. But skin, we have trouble getting beyond that and seeing the person. |
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Phagocyte
Low-Functioning NT
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1602
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| edal wrote: | Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
What about Ronald Mallet, PhD? He is a scientist currently presenting a new method of theorizing time travel using lasers instead of gravitation. He was also one of the first black PhD's in theoretical physics in America. |
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MysteryFan3
Ex-COBOL dinosaur. roar.
Joined: Jun 09, 2007
Age: 51
Posts: 1358
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: | | edal wrote: | Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
Here are two:
Benjamin Banneker.
George Washington Carver (A hero of mine.)
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Aw, you beat me to it. I'm a fan of Banneker's, myself.
How about mathematicians?
Mathematicians of the African Diaspora
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To eliminate poverty, you have to eliminate at least three things: time, the bell curve and the Pauli Exclusion Principle. Have fun. |
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alex
Developer
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
Age: 22
Posts: 6273
Location: DC Metro Area
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| he was apparently high on LSD at the time he discovered the double helix structure |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4374
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Phagocyte wrote: | | edal wrote: | Friends of mine generally agree that I don't have a racist bone in my body. Please therefore accept this challenge for what it is, a challenge and nothing more.
Name a black (A.K.A. Afro-Caribbean) scientist
Sure, there are plenty of black actors, black musicians and black politicians but I cannot recall seeing any scientists. I am of course willing to be proved wrong.
Ed Almos |
What about Ronald Mallet, PhD? He is a scientist currently presenting a new method of theorizing time travel using lasers instead of gravitation. He was also one of the first black PhD's in theoretical physics in America. |
OH, I'd be happy to rent one of the old gravitation ones. You wouldn't happen to know someone that has a working one capable of working with a person, would you? HECK, I would even be willing to return just before he lets me on, so I could pay him well in ADVANCE! I don't dare pay earlier, because he might figure he doesn't need any more money, and start a paradox. 8-(
Seriously though, he really spoke of tendencies, and how they related to africans in africa. You have to admit that is generally a HORRENDOUS society over there. And many blacks over here don't help the stereotype by using pidgeon english, etc... or, once they have INGRAINED that in their young, calling it ebonics.
Granted, there are some pretty stupid whites, and even asians, also, but at least that often wasn't as bad and not as big a part of the population as a whole. ALSO, people seem to feel plenty free to use derogatory terms against such whites. Even WHITES do! |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| 2ukenkerl wrote: | And many blacks over here don't help the stereotype by using pidgeon english, etc... or, once they have INGRAINED that in their young, calling it ebonics.
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And those darn Kurds insist on speaking their own dialect, even when the nice Iraqis and Turks try to force them to speak correctly! Really, it is more about cultural dominance and power than intelligence. People who think that black dialects (or southern accents) are a sign of inferiority are merely projecting their own bias. |
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