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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 890
Location: Tennessee
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 Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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I just finished a book called Oryx and Crake, one of the more recent works of my FORMER favorite writer Margaret Atwood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx_and_crake
26 words: a guy with AS has no soul and destroys the world because he thinks that the rest of the human race is worthless compared to autistics.
I think that the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving autistic who wants to take over the world and kill all NTs is just as offensive as the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving Jew who wants to take over the world and kill all gentiles.
End transmission.
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poopylungstuffing
Bohemian Cave dweller
Joined: Mar 09, 2007
Age: 33
Posts: 3646
Location: not otherwise specified
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I read that book a long time ago...I really had no idea that Crake was supposed to be an Aspie. |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 2928
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | | I just finished a book called Oryx and Crake, one of the more recent works of my FORMER favorite writer Margaret Atwood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx_and_crake 26 words: a guy with AS has no soul and destroys the world because he thinks that the rest of the human race is worthless compared to autistics. |
I thought it was a metaphor for the conflict between objectivity and subjectivity in our modern society.
I agree that her writing style has seriously fallen off in recent years, and i haven't read "Oryx", but i thought it sounded more like a doomy gloomy look at the increasing strangle-hold/dominion of science and its delusions of objectivity etc, than any attack on aspergers or autism.
One book by her, "The Blind Assassin", though over-wordy and finally disappointing, was about two sisters , one at least on the autistic spectrum, described with compassion/identification. Correct me if i"m wrong about the "sympathetic treatment".
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Last edited by ouinon on Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:13 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lene
Deinonychus
Joined: Nov 28, 2007
Posts: 368
Location: Pluto
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I never noticed that line... what was the context? Was it said by one of the characters? If so, it might not have been Attwood's opinion at all. |
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | I just finished a book called Oryx and Crake, one of the more recent works of my FORMER favorite writer Margaret Atwood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx_and_crake
26 words: a guy with AS has no soul and destroys the world because he thinks that the rest of the human race is worthless compared to autistics.
I think that the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving autistic who wants to take over the world and kill all NTs is just as offensive as the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving Jew who wants to take over the world and kill all gentiles.
End transmission. |
I haven't read this book, but where do you think that stereotype of Aspies comes from? Do you feel Aspies themselvse have anything to do with it?
After reading many threads on WP, the negative Aspie theory you're mentioning is not so far-fetched. Look at this thread at the bottom of my post. It's one about the alliance between Barnes & Noble and Autism Speaks having a special event for Autistic kids. Look at some of the responses from the Aspies on Wrong Planet: "Kill them with fire...makes them dead. Wish they'd die. So-and-so wouldn't have a problem annihilating them."
Even if these comments are in jest and only for fun, maybe people like Atwood are forming opinions and images of Aspies from what she sees, hears, researches and experiences. And, some of that material can come from online. Maybe some of those images are ones that Aspies themselves are putting out in the universe for all to judge, not ones drawn up from a writer's imagination.
I came to this board because I was told that it's a good place to see what life is like for adolescent-to-adult spectrumers. And, it is! Truly. But, what I also saw is that Aspies can carry a lot of hate and vindictiveness of others, particularly NTs and organizations that they don't support. So, they should not get offended or angry when someone writes a fictional character who behaves that way in a book.
Barnes & Noble Thread
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt58923.html |
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 890
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| poopylungstuffing wrote: | | I read that book a long time ago...I really had no idea that Crake was supposed to be an Aspie. |
They never say it outright, but Crake attends a college called Asperger's U and calls Jimmy a "neurotypical".
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 890
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| NewportBeachDude wrote: | I haven't read this book, but where do you think that stereotype of Aspies comes from? Do you feel Aspies themselvse have anything to do with it?
After reading many threads on WP, the negative Aspie theory you're mentioning is not so far-fetched. Look at this thread at the bottom of my post. It's one about the alliance between Barnes & Noble and Autism Speaks having a special event for Autistic kids. Look at some of the responses from the Aspies on Wrong Planet: "Kill them with fire...makes them dead. Wish they'd die. So-and-so wouldn't have a problem annihilating them." |
The most extreme people are the loudest: that is a given. Autism Speaks and the Curebie Fanatics screeching at the feral Magneto-wannabes, and 90% of us trying to look inconspicuous in the middle.
All stereotypes contain a grain of truth surrounded by a thick, gummy coating of cruel exaggeration. Aspies can become isolationists, can become wrathful. All groups contain both bad and good people.
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | The most extreme people are the loudest: that is a given. Autism Speaks and the Curebie Fanatics screeching at the feral Magneto-wannabes, and 90% of us trying to look inconspicuous in the middle.
All stereotypes contain a grain of truth surrounded by a thick, gummy coating of cruel exaggeration. Aspies can become isolationists, can become wrathful. All groups contain both bad and good people. |
Right. And, I respect your reply. But, I also respect the people out there that want a cure or alleviation of their symptoms (therefore, wanting to eradicate the symptoms that cause the disorder). I don't see pro-curbies as extreme or fanatics. I know many people who are this way and they are parents or adults who are very good people. I see people wanting to harm or kill other people for their views as extreme. I see people going to other websites and harrassing parents wanting support as extreme. These people are extreme because their veiws lead them to harmful, atrocious, and dangerous behaviors.
And, the point I was making in my earlier post is that I may not be the only one noticing this. Maybe others (like Atwood) do the research and form their opinions from the behaviors they read about from the very mouths of Aspergians. |
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 890
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| NewportBeachDude wrote: | | MissPickwickian wrote: | The most extreme people are the loudest: that is a given. Autism Speaks and the Curebie Fanatics screeching at the feral Magneto-wannabes, and 90% of us trying to look inconspicuous in the middle.
All stereotypes contain a grain of truth surrounded by a thick, gummy coating of cruel exaggeration. Aspies can become isolationists, can become wrathful. All groups contain both bad and good people. |
Right. And, I respect your reply. But, I also respect the people out there that want a cure or alleviation of their symptoms (therefore, wanting to eradicate the symptoms that cause the disorder). I don't see pro-curbies as extreme or fanatics. I know many people who are this way and they parents or adults who are very good people. I see people wanting to harm or kill other people for their views as extreme. I see people going to other websites and harrassing parents wanting support as extreme. These people are extreme because their veiws lead them to harmful, atrocious, and dangerous behaviors.
And, the point I was making in my earlier post is that I may not be the only one noticing this. Maybe others (like Atwood) do the research and form their opinions from the behaviors they read about from the very mouths of Aspergians. |
I'm not saying all Curebies are fanatics. Most aren't. But some are (THIMEROSOL MENTALS! THE GIRL WITH THE AUTISTIC SISTER WHO KEEPS CALLING ME BRAIN-DAMAGED!).
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NewportBeachDude
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | | I'm not saying all Curebies are fanatics. Most aren't. But some are (THIMEROSOL MENTALS! THE GIRL WITH THE AUTISTIC SISTER WHO KEEPS CALLING ME BRAIN-DAMAGED!). |
Yes, some. That's not right for someone to call you that. What's up with people? |
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ouinon
chemical reaction
Joined: Jul 11, 2007
Posts: 2928
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | | Crake attends a college called Asperger's U and calls Jimmy a "neurotypical". |
That does seem pretty conclusive, more than just suggestive anyway.
I read "The Blind Assassin" just a few weeks ago; your OP has reminded me of how i wasn't "quite sure" about the presentation of the two sisters, at least one of whom, ( the one who drives off a bridge), seems to be on the spectrum.
There was something that i felt uneasy about. The other sister for instance, reminded me of me, and in some ways seemed aspergers, and it is her blindness that so harms her sister. Her sister seemed like an idealised portrait of the innocent naive idealism etc of someone with autism, childlike.
I do feel as if i may have missed something, but that something about the book made me uneasy. About what exactly i don't know, but it is true that i did wonder if it might be something in the "autism" element.  
If so, and in light of "aspergers U" ref above, then it does look as if she has lost the plot a little. Surely she can't believe that angry aspergers are a serious force for totalitarianism.  I did think on reading reviews of "oryx" that it would be a brilliant attack on society's infatuation with scientific delusions of objectivity. 
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 890
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ouinon wrote: | | MissPickwickian wrote: | | Crake attends a college called Asperger's U and calls Jimmy a "neurotypical". |
That does seem pretty conclusive, more than just suggestive anyway.
I read "The Blind Assassin" just a few weeks ago; your OP has reminded me of how i wasn't "quite sure" about the presentation of the two sisters, at least one of whom, ( the one who drives off a bridge), seems to be on the spectrum.
There was something that i felt uneasy about. The other sister for instance, reminded me of me, and in some ways seemed aspergers, and it is her blindness that so harms her sister. Her sister seemed like an idealised portrait of the innocent naive idealism etc of someone with autism, childlike.
I do feel as if i may have missed something, but that something about the book made me uneasy. About what exactly i don't know, but it is true that i did wonder if it might be something in the "autism" element.
If so, and in light of "aspergers U" ref above, then it does look as if she has lost the plot a little. Surely she can't believe that angry aspergers are a serious force for totalitarianism. I did think on reading reviews of "oryx" that it would be a brilliant attack on society's infatuation with scientific delusions of objectivity.
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It was a good novel and a searing indictment, but it was deeply flawed, at least to me, by its unfair portrayal of people on the spectrum. It's a bit like Oliver Twist, which was amazing, especially for its time, for putting the impoverished English underworld under the spotlight. Still, My God, man! Your villain is a Der Strumer-caliber Jewish criminal stereotype? Not cool. Not cool at all. A book can be good and still be damn racist.
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9CatMom
Ailurophile
Joined: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 5399
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| If anything, this book is an object lesson on who NOT to emulate if you have AS. I haven't read this book because of the reviews, which revealed the portrait of a very extreme, very hateful, AS character, not the kind of person whose ideas I could ever embrace. |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2686
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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I know, all the other villains have better support groups.
We are running out of material. It is just hard to find good villain material, and often the storyline needs one or more.
I for one can see the good in plantary destruction. James Bond had only small gangs, looking to become somewhat larger. He was with the big gang, who were eating up independants.
Anyone can create a hero, villains take other people.
I would rather be feared than bullied, would you know where I could find and Asperger's U shirt?
Tesla became the model of Mad Scientist comics, looked just like him. A play on fear of advancing technology.
Autistics in the form of inventors bring strong reactions. We change things.
Few worry about terror, the war, it's the economy, and we are the enemy within.
We do have the power to destroy the world, have been. We invented a lot of change, and humans wanted everything to stay the same.
I have a story line, Autistic inventor, trying to do something good. Due to being socially withdrawn, a hermit, he does not foresee how his invention will be applied. It does not destroy the planet, nor does he, the people who get it do. He gets a major case of what the inventor of duct tape did, hearing the body was found bound with duct tape.
Humans whacked things with sticks till some autistic sharpened one end to a point, and look what happened, an arms race.
Let them have their vision of a villain, well read I am sure, tall and well dressed would help. Running around like James Bond.
They will never see the real danger, 16, autistic, home in her room, on the computer, molding the autistic neural net that will dominate the planet soon. |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 1986
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Margaret Atwood is an unlikely bigot. |
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| MissPickwickian wrote: | I just finished a book called Oryx and Crake, one of the more recent works of my FORMER favorite writer Margaret Atwood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryx_and_crake
26 words: a guy with AS has no soul and destroys the world because he thinks that the rest of the human race is worthless compared to autistics.
I think that the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving autistic who wants to take over the world and kill all NTs is just as offensive as the stereotype of the cloistered, conniving Jew who wants to take over the world and kill all gentiles.
End transmission. |
Complaints department topic
MissPickwickian, please write to Margaret Atwood. I am sure she will explain herself, as she is the inventor of the Longpen, which, is, of course, mightier than the sword.
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