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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Emotionalism is Ruining Civilization |
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Assertion: Rampant Emotionalism is Ruining Civilization.
Obsession with feelings, and the idea that feelings are superior to rationality, goes hand in hand with intellectual shallowness and anti-intellectualism. People quit school, do drugs, and mess up their lives because they are striving to gratify feelings. Not only are tax revenues and productivity lost from these people, but society has to spend billions of dollars helping them get their lives back in order.
However, no one dares to attack their lifestyles because that would weaken their self-esteem. Popular belief holds that people with lifestyle problems suffer only from poor self-esteem, and if that could be restored, they and society would be the better for it.
To the contrary; anyone who thinks he's entitled to a life without accountability, life support from others, and the right to vent his frustrations on innocent people does not suffer from poor self-esteem. Such people have grotesquely bloated senses of self-esteem. They are narcissists of the first order.
Most of what is called math and science anxiety is also narcissism. The buzzword for narcissism in the educational literature is "Ego Protection" (a rose by another name). Students feel that they rank so high in the cosmic order that they are entitled never to suffer anxiety or frustration. The irony, of course, is that they can never have good self-esteem as long as they know they are hiding from an obligation.
And that obligation is to learn (preferably math and science), and to use what was learned to advance civilization. This is "Plan A", in my book.
Instead, we must rely on "Plan B", which utilizes the "Express your feelings" method of crisis management to inform the masses. We live in a culture full of people who believe that expressing their feelings about a crisis is infinitely more important than actually solving the crisis, or in putting in place measures that would prevent the crisis from happening in the first place!
Plan B is reinforced by the news media. More emphasis is placed on the emotional impact of a disaster than in what actually happened or what is being done about it. When journalists start asking "How does it feel?" they have lost all my faith in their ability to report events in a most timely and accurate manner.
Thus, emotionalism reinforces the willed circumvention of the need for cool heads in a crisis, and replaces it with a cacaphony of wastefully expressive nonsense.
Now, I am not suggestion that personal feelings have no importance. After all, feelings motivate people to do things. I'm just saying that emoting for its own sake is a waste of effort, and that focussing on one's feelings at the expense of reason actually hinders personal growth. Now that hindered personal growth has become popular, we see declining proficiency in science and mathematics, and an increase in personal conflict that eventually creeps its way into political and social systems at the highest levels. Nothing gets done.
I am saying that we must have a return to reason; that personal growth is more about what you know and what you do, than it is about about how you feel and how you express yourself. In other words, stop crying and do something about it!
We have become so comcerned with how we feel, that we have lost our ambition. We are so focussed upon ourselves, that we have stopped looking at the stars; and once seeing, reaching for them.
Comments?
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a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3666
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Historically, we tend to alternate between emphasis on reason and emphasis on emotion, each step being a reaction to the last. Middle Age mysticism to Renaissance humanism to early modern imperialism to Enlightenment (also called "Age of Reason") to Romanticism to Realism to irrationalism (Freud, Nietzsche, Bergson) and so on. I would prefer to live in an age that stressed reason over emotion. I also agree with your statements that the focus should be on learning math and science and using that knowledge to the benefit of society; that seems to me just to be any capable person's obligation.
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 953
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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What if you are simply not good at dealing with math, science, or money? If you don't fit into the strata of society that contributes rationally to things, are you worthless? 
Just a question.
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LostInEmulation
Penguin
Joined: Feb 11, 2008
Posts: 1226
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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That is an angry rant! Tell me why being emotional makes you angry so we can talk about it!
((Sorry could not resist. Actually, you do have some good points!))
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I am no native speaker. Please contact me, if I made grammatical mistakes in the posting above.
GENERATION 20: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
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D1nk0
Phoenix
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Age: 29
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I strongly favor reason over emotion when it comes to decision making. My person problem is that Im a very passionate, intense person and there are times when I have no control over my emotions-meaning that my emotions basically overpower me and take control even though my rational mind recognizes that they're mistaken. Learning to live with your emotions and the ability to override them when necessary seems to be essential for successful functioning in civilization. |
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Cyberman
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Posts: 879
Location: Telos
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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EMOTION IS A WEAKNESS. (sorry j/k, couldn't resist...)
But contrary to popular belief, Nazi Germany is a good example of how emotionalism (not cold "intellectualism") was used to destroy a civilization. Adolf Hitler was said to be able to know what the people wanted to hear, what would appeal to their hearts, and use it to manipulate them. People can be very gullible when they hold their emotions above reason. So while there may be some danger in a too unemotional society, I think that an overly emotional society can be worse... especially in this day and age, when we need to become a lot more scientific in our attitude towards the environment. Too much emotionalism WILL destroy us. |
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tailfins1959
Deinonychus
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Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Cyberman wrote: | EMOTION IS A WEAKNESS. (sorry j/k, couldn't resist...)
But contrary to popular belief, Nazi Germany is a good example of how emotionalism (not cold "intellectualism") was used to destroy a civilization. Adolf Hitler was said to be able to know what the people wanted to hear, what would appeal to their hearts, and use it to manipulate them. People can be very gullible when they hold their emotions above reason. So while there may be some danger in a too unemotional society, I think that an overly emotional society can be worse... especially in this day and age, when we need to become a lot more scientific in our attitude towards the environment. Too much emotionalism WILL destroy us. |
How dare you! Don't you care about THE CHILDREN?!?!? Are you against taxing carbon to generate a tax infrastructure exceeding the income tax in complexity? Well, you scumbag you're against clean air and water and a healthy environment, aren't you?
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Yeah with all of these men lining up to get neutered
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I don't highlight my hair
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LostInEmulation wrote: | | That is an angry rant! Tell me why being emotional makes you angry so we can talk about it! |
 I get the joke!
The emotions I feel about a situation motivate me to do something about the situation ... something other than cry t it. I'll not waste time or bandwidth analysing and discussing every subtle nuance of feeling. Rather, I'll gladly discuss any means to resolve the emotionalism / anti-intellectualism issue.
We need more thinker and doers, and fewer dark, brooding, naval-gazing emo types, if we're ever going to solve the social issues that plague the world today!
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tailfins1959 wrote: | | Cyberman wrote: | EMOTION IS A WEAKNESS. (sorry j/k, couldn't resist...)
But contrary to popular belief, Nazi Germany is a good example of how emotionalism (not cold "intellectualism") was used to destroy a civilization. Adolf Hitler was said to be able to know what the people wanted to hear, what would appeal to their hearts, and use it to manipulate them. People can be very gullible when they hold their emotions above reason. So while there may be some danger in a too unemotional society, I think that an overly emotional society can be worse... especially in this day and age, when we need to become a lot more scientific in our attitude towards the environment. Too much emotionalism WILL destroy us. |
How dare you! Don't you care about THE CHILDREN?!?!? Are you against taxing carbon to generate a tax infrastructure exceeding the income tax in complexity? Well, you scumbag you're against clean air and water and a healthy environment, aren't you? |
Why do you hate America?
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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lelia
Pika
Joined: Apr 12, 2007
Age: 56
Posts: 1405
Location: Vancouver not BC, Washington not DC
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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How dare you! Don't you care about THE CHILDREN?!?!? Are you against taxing carbon to generate a tax infrastructure exceeding the income tax in complexity? Well, you scumbag you're against clean air and water and a healthy environment, aren't you?[/quote]
This scumbag says, "Hear! Hear!" |
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IpsoRandomo
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Age: 21
Posts: 375
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I mostly agree that rationality is important. But here are some points to consider:
*My senior year English teacher pointed out that there is a conflict between thinking and acting.
The more time you spend planning your actions, the less time you have to act.
*You can't question everything, though you should question your broader assumptions (e.g., Imagine a little kid who asks why the sky's blue, then asks a million other questions)
*Objectivity isn't necessarily a good thing. I've harped on this point before, but some unrealistic optimism and false beliefs are necessary to be happy (I learned this in psychology).
*False beliefs can be beneficial depending on their content and the certitude with which they're held.
*Morality is neither rational nor irrational. In fact, morality is purely emotional as far as I can tell. I cannot coherently imagine what it would mean for something to matter unless it was emotional. In fact, I'd go so far as to say feeling is mattering.
*We rely on our emotions to make even "rational" decisions. For example, people with brain damage who cannot feel emotion have extreme difficulty making even mundane decisions. Instead, they spend so much time planning their actions that they never act. They also become overwhelmed with details.
*Smart people tend to be better at self-deception. It's not always clear where the error lies in their thinking, especially if you're less intelligent. |
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 953
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Cyberman wrote: | EMOTION IS A WEAKNESS. (sorry j/k, couldn't resist...)
But contrary to popular belief, Nazi Germany is a good example of how emotionalism (not cold "intellectualism") was used to destroy a civilization. Adolf Hitler was said to be able to know what the people wanted to hear, what would appeal to their hearts, and use it to manipulate them. People can be very gullible when they hold their emotions above reason. So while there may be some danger in a too unemotional society, I think that an overly emotional society can be worse... especially in this day and age, when we need to become a lot more scientific in our attitude towards the environment. Too much emotionalism WILL destroy us. |
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt63570.html
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It's the microbes' world. We're just living in it. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| IpsoRandomo wrote: | I mostly agree that rationality is important. But here are some points to consider:
... |
All valid points. However...
* My post-graduate philosophy professor pointed out that action - or the lack of it - reveals intent.
* The more time you spend in effective planning, the more effective your actions will be.
* Nearly everyone could benefit from a healthy fantasy life, but it is effective thought and action that advances society, and not dreams alone.
* There is only one cause of unhappiness: the false beliefs you have in your head, beliefs so widespread, so commonly held, that it never occurs to you to question them.
* Liberty cannot be established without morality, and morality cannot be established without reason.
* Brain-damaged people who fail to make decisions, do so not because they lack emotional awareness, but because their brains are damaged.
* Smart people may believe that they are above being deceived, but people can be led to do anything once you determine the key to their emotional state.
I'm sure we cold trade needlepoint homilies until this server's buffers are full, but until man began to use reason to overcome his primitive emotional urges, mankind was condemned to live in caes and be afraid of the unknown.
Civilization is based on reason, and advances solely through its application.
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5710
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Emotionalism is Ruining Civilization |
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| Fnord wrote: |
Obsession with feelings, and the idea that feelings are superior to rationality, goes hand in hand with intellectual shallowness and anti-intellectualism. People quit school, do drugs, and mess up their lives because they are striving to gratify feelings. Not only are tax revenues and productivity lost from these people, but society has to spend billions of dollars helping them get their lives back in order. |
Feelings ARE superior to rationality though. That is practically a valid analytical statement to say that too. Now, you are right, delaying gratification is important, but ultimately, as Nietzsche once stated: "The will to overcome an emotion, is ultimately only the will of another, or of several other, emotions." and this idea is backed up with motivational research in psychology which shows that in order for human beings to make decisions they must refer back to emotions and feelings, and if that part of the brain is damaged then the task is very difficult. http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2006-08-06-brain-study_x.htm
Yes, people do all of those things, and it is based upon your own personal feelings that you say that it is wrong for them to do so and that you may say that you necessarily know better. Really though, society does not have to do anything with these people, it just decides it is wisest to do them.
| Quote: | | However, no one dares to attack their lifestyles because that would weaken their self-esteem. Popular belief holds that people with lifestyle problems suffer only from poor self-esteem, and if that could be restored, they and society would be the better for it. |
Ok?? Um... well, self-esteem ideas are partially true, the idea that younger people have weaker judgment and that who are most likely to do this are often those with lower expectations on them, seems to be a strong case as well. That latter part may relate partially to self-esteem but it partially does not.
| Quote: | | To the contrary; anyone who thinks he's entitled to a life without accountability, life support from others, and the right to vent his frustrations on innocent people does not suffer from poor self-esteem. Such people have grotesquely bloated senses of self-esteem. They are narcissists of the first order. |
Actually, one of the issues with self-esteem is that those who have low self-esteem often times will puff them up. In fact, narcissism is believed by many to be a defense mechanism against a crippled self-esteem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder#Various_clinical_views and check out the section below about theories on it as well. As well, inferiority complexes will often result in overcompensatory drives too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex
| Quote: | | Most of what is called math and science anxiety is also narcissism. The buzzword for narcissism in the educational literature is "Ego Protection" (a rose by another name). Students feel that they rank so high in the cosmic order that they are entitled never to suffer anxiety or frustration. The irony, of course, is that they can never have good self-esteem as long as they know they are hiding from an obligation. |
Well, they really don't if this is just a protection mechanism against their poor self-esteem. So, it is not ironic, it is just that they really do have weak self-esteems already if they are narcissists. Really though, obligations do not exist beyond what an individual says they are.
| Quote: | And that obligation is to learn (preferably math and science), and to use what was learned to advance civilization. This is "Plan A", in my book.
Instead, we must rely on "Plan B", which utilizes the "Express your feelings" method of crisis management to inform the masses. We live in a culture full of people who believe that expressing their feelings about a crisis is infinitely more important than actually solving the crisis, or in putting in place measures that would prevent the crisis from happening in the first place! |
Well, I don't think that they actually believe that, they are just like the majority of mankind and are stupid. If people are stupid then they don't really know how to solve the crises. Not only that, but solving the crisis is usually a task beyond them anyway. Given the fact that this stupidity comes at very little personal cost, it is rational to be stupid, in fact, economists call the stupidity masses show on policy decisions and such to be a form of "rational ignorance" because the individual does not have much to gain with the knowledge but much to lose by trying to get it(less time doing things more favored).
| Quote: | | Plan B is reinforced by the news media. More emphasis is placed on the emotional impact of a disaster than in what actually happened or what is being done about it. When journalists start asking "How does it feel?" they have lost all my faith in their ability to report events in a most timely and accurate manner. |
Well,
| Quote: | | Thus, emotionalism reinforces the willed circumvention of the need for cool heads in a crisis, and replaces it with a cacaphony of wastefully expressive nonsense. |
Emotionalism is a fundamental part of human psychology, we soar on thinking everything is alright, and then when things start going wrong, we overcorrect for it from the shock. Even intelligent people do this, and this tendency is called the availability bias as we overweight the most recent information, and according to behavioral economists, it is what causes bubbles in the stock market to drastically pop.
| Quote: | | Now, I am not suggestion that personal feelings have no importance. After all, feelings motivate people to do things. I'm just saying that emoting for its own sake is a waste of effort, and that focussing on one's feelings at the expense of reason actually hinders personal growth. Now that hindered personal growth has become popular, we see declining proficiency in science and mathematics, and an increase in personal conflict that eventually creeps its way into political and social systems at the highest levels. Nothing gets done. |
Emoting for its own sake is a way to release emotion. Do you think it is healthy for an individual to lock up their feelings and never express them? Not only that, but honestly, rationality is only a tool of the feelings to be used or disused as individuals please. If feelings motivate people to do things, then they motivate them to use reason in the first place, thus making reason the tool of feelings within your own framework. I would say that our deficiency in science and mathematics has little to do with just feelings, and more to do with a lack of cold war, and perhaps the fact that math and science teachers can make more in private industry than as teachers.
| Quote: | | I am saying that we must have a return to reason; that personal growth is more about what you know and what you do, than it is about about how you feel and how you express yourself. In other words, stop crying and do something about it! |
Then personal growth is about nothing but feelings. By reason I know nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regress_argument but I do what I feel.
| Quote: |
We have become so comcerned with how we feel, that we have lost our ambition. We are so focussed upon ourselves, that we have stopped looking at the stars; and once seeing, reaching for them.
Comments? |
What do the stars matter? "Away, then, with every concern that is not altogether my concern! You think at least the " good cause" must be my concern ? What's good, what's bad ? Why, I myself am my concern, and I am neither good nor bad. Neither has meaning for me." -Max Stirner |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3666
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | * There is only one cause of unhappiness: the false beliefs you have in your head, beliefs so widespread, so commonly held, that it never occurs to you to question them. |
Tell that to a starving, orphaned African child who will die in the next few years of AIDS, malnutrition, malaria, or political violence. See if they agree.
Absolute statements annoy me, because they are always wrong. (including that one)
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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