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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: "Rote" learning |
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When I went to public schools, the worst thing for me was so-called "rote learning". Especially in maths. In third grade we were being "taught" multiplication and division of fractions, but the teacher learned by rote, so we were presented with the same. I couldn't get it. My grades were all over the place in the PS.
Learning by rote means the teacher is not teaching from knowledge; I've always found it easy to learn something if the teacher actually understands what she's teaching. From my standpoint, then, "rote learning" is learning from ignorance, and I've never been able to learn from ignorance. Seems to me our wiring is set for knowledge-based learning, at least it strongly feels that way to me.
By the time I got to HS, I was not able to follow algebra; in fact, the teacher didn't even know what algebra was for! One of my classmates asked suddenly one day "Why do we have to learn this stuff? What's it for?". The teacher hemmed and hawed, then said "Well, it's good training for your mind."
OY! How lame that sounded to us; the teacher as good as said "I don't know, I learned how to do this stuff by rote".
How can human forms of knowledge be expected to bow down to ignorance?
I'd like someone to tell me the situation has radically improved in the PS, but I'm not holding my breath.
So, I never really learned multiplication and division of fractions, or algebra, until I went to a trade school in my thirties, where I had a real math professor who definitely knew what algebra was for! And he taught from knowledge, not from rote. I was straight A+ in that class!
Regards, Johnpipe
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He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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Thomas1138
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 06, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like an excuse to me.
Like it or not, basic math is very mechanical and doesn't require some of the theoretical underpinnings to teach to 8-year-olds (who wouldn't understand it anyway). |
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deathchibi
anime freak of nature!!!!
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Age: 117
Posts: 6872
Location: earth
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: |
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i agree with johnpipe108
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me fail english! thats unpossible!
4th sin: sloth. |
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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas1138 wrote: | Sounds like an excuse to me.
Like it or not, basic math is very mechanical and doesn't require some of the theoretical underpinnings to teach to 8-year-olds (who wouldn't understand it anyway). |
I can appreciate your viewpoint, but Ifeel you're overlooking a broader picture. Fractional multiplication and division in particular can present cognitive issues to people like us, and I know plenty of people in general who had trouble with this particular piece of "basic math".
The fact that our minds are generally at a functional level more like that of a teenager or adult by the time we enter primary school doesn't help matters here either, especially as the teacher was generally relating to us as if we were of the same intellectual level as our 8-year-old peers, and that tends to produce a frustrating feeling that can result in a communications disconnection between us and the teacher.
The idea that "8 year olds wouldn't understand anyway" strikes me as conventional, and somewhat N/T centric; I believe even most N/T 8 year olds are at least a bit more intelligent than most adults want to think.
And, I'm pretty sure everyone, N/T and "aspie" alike would do a lot better in school if school was really about education, in which case I would find it very logical to have teachers that are knowledgeable; our national priorities with regard to how important education is doesn't fill me with confidence.
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He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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Thomas1138
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 06, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can appreciate your viewpoint, but Ifeel you're overlooking a broader picture. |
Not really. Looking at mathematics from a broader viewpoint, the theoretical aspects of it are mostly trivial unless you really want to study mathematics at an advanced level.
In this subject's case the learning the "how" is infinitely more important for the average person's education than the "why".
| Quote: | | The idea that "8 year olds wouldn't understand anyway" strikes me as conventional, and somewhat N/T centric; I believe even most N/T 8 year olds are at least a bit more intelligent than most adults want to think. |
<shrug>
I've watched college students go crosseyed. |
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A350XWB
Raven
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 124
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Is calculus "advanced" enough to say it's not trivial anymore?
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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Thomas1138 wrote: | | Quote: | | I can appreciate your viewpoint, but Ifeel you're overlooking a broader picture. |
Not really. Looking at mathematics from a broader viewpoint, the theoretical aspects of it are mostly trivial unless you really want to study mathematics at an advanced level.
In this subject's case the learning the "how" is infinitely more important for the average person's education than the "why".
[<SNIP>
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<sarcasm>Ah, yes, "How", and our American students are so much better than those Asian students at maths.</sarcasm>
I agree, as long as your highest aspiration in life is to be a counter clerk at McDonalds, you don't really need to understand that pesky "why" business; leave that to your betters.
Senator Claghorn: "Friends, don't listen to those folks who say our students are inferior to Asian students at maths; why, we're 'Mericans, were the best at everything. The only reason those Asian engineers are taking 'Merican jobs is because they're willing to work for less pay than decent 'Mericans! Take my word for that, you know I would never try to deceive my fellow 'Mericans. Vote for me!"
And, don't pay any attention to that little business of our colleges and universities having to implement remedial maths programs for incoming freshmen; after all, all you need to know is "how" to work the problems someone else set up for you to solve so you can get a passing grade.
For the last several decades, the American high tech industry has been clamoring for people who actually understood math, and were good with their higher reasoning faculties, i.e., they could actually solve challenging high-tech real world problems.
Those are the number one and two reasons why they like to hire Asian engineers, because the Asians were actually taught the understanding, the knowledge and application of math, beginning from day one, not just how to do already configured problems, and they were taught critical reasoning skills, something that's also been sadly lacking in American education.
Of course, higher reasoning skills would produce intelligent citizens, and we wouldn't want our citizens to be too smart now, would we?
And, actually being compelled to learn both the "how" and the "why" of stuff tends to exercise and develop those higher reasoning skills. So, we really shouldn't be teaching those nasty little brats what maths is really all about; they might grow up to be smarter than us, and then where would we be?
Those "trivial" basic maths and fractions contain within them the entire complex world of algebra, trigonometry, geometry, analytic geometry, calculus ...
_________________
He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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Thomas1138
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 06, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| A350XWB wrote: | | Is calculus "advanced" enough to say it's not trivial anymore? |
Hey man, if you feel like reading Philosophić Naturalis Principia Mathematica, be my guest. I'm not particulrly interested in why calculus works so much as that it does myself. I'm not a mathmatician and don't ever plan to be, so it too is trivial to me.
| Quote: | | <sarcasm>Ah, yes, "How", and our American students are so much better than those Asian students at maths.</sarcasm> |
They're 10x more drill and kill in Asia than they are in the United States. I should be the one using the sarcasm brackets because you've got things backwards. |
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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | <sarcasm>Ah, yes, "How", and our American students are so much better than those Asian students at maths.</sarcasm> |
They're 10x more drill and kill in Asia than they are in the United States. I should be the one using the sarcasm brackets because you've got things backwards. |
I stand corrected.
_________________
He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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wsmac
WP Elevator Operator - What Floor Please?
Joined: Sep 01, 2007
Posts: 2740
Location: Humboldt County, Little Blue House on the Corner
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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I have to say that rote learning of anything more than addition tables is not a workable method for me... as far as math goes.
I am one of those that needs to understand the 'why' even at a basic algebra level.
It has never done me any good to try and remember that given a problem in a certain configuration, you would use formula 'X'.
I've tried and I'm 48 y.o. and I've been through more traditional teaching methods back in Texas in the 60's.
What works for me is to understand 'why' that formula 'X' works with a certain problem configuration.
I need to 'see' the workings of the formula while it is dealing with the math problem.
I don't think it's a 'one size fits all' sort of world and so there are a number of children who do get written off as being lazy, stupid, rebellious, etc., when they are not any of those.
I wasn't, but I sure felt like that's what others thought of me.
Oh.. and johnpipe... looked at your website.. nice pipes!
And you know John Peterson? That's cool.
I was just down in Oakland and was planning on dropping my Amazing Grace to see what he had in the way of a good old open-back banjo for clawhammer playing.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately most Arithmetic is about learning computational algorithms by rote, they tried mixing "higher level" math concepts in to the curricula a few decades ago, but the "New Math" didn't work out too well.
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Thomas1138
Velociraptor
Joined: Apr 06, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 459
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Yep, a total disaster that was. It's also the first and last time mathmaticians designed math curricula.
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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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There is something I need to say here.
I'm a grandpa, with a 4-year old granddaughter who is already in pre-school, and a 1-year old grandson. The system euphemistically called "American Public Education" left "a bitter taste in my mouth", and I am just becoming aware since discovering 7 months ago that I came "under the spectrum", and the recent communication by the mother of mychildren that she suspects she is also "aspergian" (although she has been bi-polar which masked the possibility of that understanding), of that reason for my growing concern. I am feeing very concerned as to what's going to happen to my grand-kids, and others their age, when faced with the vagaries of American education.
I have read posts here from young spectrum people who are struggling with the tortuous experience of American education right now; I've been there, and know what it's like.
I was born in a very dark period of modern history, WWII. Folks of my generation are, therefore, covered over in "cruft" of Ignorance; in regard to which. the wise yogi Chiranjiva once said to us during the 1970's "Neither you, nor your children, but your children's children, will get the clarity of understanding that you seek."
That has been my experience, so I have to be clear in my feeling, that anything I post or my responses here are going to be colored, both by my higher feelings, and my human ignorance. My posts are generally going to be a mix of "good 'ol common sense, and plain 'ol common ignorance." Being "Aspergian" and having difficulty characterizing emotions naturally adds to the difficulty.
It may, or may not, surprise some people to learn that there are a growing number of professional educators, with far more impressive credentials than any that I may lay claim to, that not ony agree with my views on rote, but go even farther; they have begun to express a conviction that rote learning and homework are both counter-productive, and ill-suited to the intellectual needs of growing young minds.
During the seventies, when a friend was dying of cancer, her sister came out to be with her; she was an English teacher in the Chicago Public School system. She declared that "the schools exist to teach boredom, to prepare children for boring office jobs." Not exactly a glowing endorsement for the state of public education.
Rote and homework are both "B-O-R-I-N-G", and I'd be willing to bet that this is the number one reason why so many kids really hate school. I feel that an education that challenges young minds is a far more fun experience than the alternative.
Getting there, in practical terms, is the difficulty.
_________________
He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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johnpipe108
Sea Gull
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Petaluma, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| wsmac wrote: |
<snip>
What works for me is to understand 'why' that formula 'X' works with a certain problem configuration.
I need to 'see' the workings of the formula while it is dealing with the math problem.
I don't think it's a 'one size fits all' sort of world and so there are a number of children who do get written off as being lazy, stupid, rebellious, etc., when they are not any of those.
I wasn't, but I sure felt like that's what others thought of me.
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Well Said!
| Quote: |
Oh.. and johnpipe... looked at your website.. nice pipes!
And you know John Peterson? That's cool.
I was just down in Oakland and was planning on dropping my Amazing Grace to see what he had in the way of a good old open-back banjo for clawhammer playing. |
We used to have an old Warnaut 5-string like that; and we once had our hands on a Vega Tenor. I've got an old Ludwig Tenor that I've got strung IIRC, D-G-A-E ("Irish" tuning)
pm me if there's a chance we could get together sometimes and play some pipes, whistle, and banjo together!
Regards, Johnpipe
_________________
He who sees all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings, hates none -- Isha Upanishad
Bom Shankar Bholenath! I do not "have a syndrome", nor do I "have a disorder," I am a "Natural Born Scholar!" |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| johnpipe108 wrote: | There is something I need to say here.
I'm a grandpa, with a 4-year old granddaughter who is already in pre-school, and a 1-year old grandson. The system euphemistically called "American Public Education" left "a bitter taste in my mouth", and I am just becoming aware since discovering 7 months ago that I came "under the spectrum", and the recent communication by the mother of mychildren that she suspects she is also "aspergian" (although she has been bi-polar which masked the possibility of that understanding), of that reason for my growing concern. I am feeing very concerned as to what's going to happen to my grand-kids, and others their age, when faced with the vagaries of American education.
I have read posts here from young spectrum people who are struggling with the tortuous experience of American education right now; I've been there, and know what it's like.
I was born in a very dark period of modern history, WWII. Folks of my generation are, therefore, covered over in "cruft" of Ignorance; in regard to which. the wise yogi Chiranjiva once said to us during the 1970's "Neither you, nor your children, but your children's children, will get the clarity of understanding that you seek."
That has been my experience, so I have to be clear in my feeling, that anything I post or my responses here are going to be colored, both by my higher feelings, and my human ignorance. My posts are generally going to be a mix of "good 'ol common sense, and plain 'ol common ignorance." Being "Aspergian" and having difficulty characterizing emotions naturally adds to the difficulty.
It may, or may not, surprise some people to learn that there are a growing number of professional educators, with far more impressive credentials than any that I may lay claim to, that not ony agree with my views on rote, but go even farther; they have begun to express a conviction that rote learning and homework are both counter-productive, and ill-suited to the intellectual needs of growing young minds.
During the seventies, when a friend was dying of cancer, her sister came out to be with her; she was an English teacher in the Chicago Public School system. She declared that "the schools exist to teach boredom, to prepare children for boring office jobs." Not exactly a glowing endorsement for the state of public education.
Rote and homework are both "B-O-R-I-N-G", and I'd be willing to bet that this is the number one reason why so many kids really hate school. I feel that an education that challenges young minds is a far more fun experience than the alternative.
Getting there, in practical terms, is the difficulty. |
I couldn't agree more, John. IMO one big problem is that most teachers are crap because the pay is crap. People (men especially) who would be good teachers rarely go into teaching because they can get better-paying jobs elsewhere, the result is that we get teachers that are for the most part intellectual lightweights and glorified baby-sitters that regurgitate whatever is in the textbook as divine revelation that must not be questioned. And if a student does question what he or she is taught the student will be punished because the teacher needs to prevent the students from figuring out that she is a pinhead.
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