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iamnotaparakeet
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 Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Do rivers erode through mountains? |
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| Quote: | Water gaps are strong evidence for the Genesis Flood
by Michael Oard
Many rivers, after travelling along a valley, suddenly turn and flow through a narrow gorge that cuts through a mountain range, a ridge, or a plateau. Such gorges are called water gaps. It looks like the river cut the gorge, but how could it? Surely, if the river had carved the landscape slowly over long ages, it would have flowed around the barrier instead of flowing through it. So was the gorge eroded first by something we don’t see happening today?
Water gaps worldwide
Numerous water gaps occur in Europe.1 They also occur in South America, Australia, Africa, New Zealand, China, and many other areas. In other words, they are worldwide, occurring in most mountain ranges:
‘Since these early studies [done in the late 19th century] transverse drainage have been identified from most major mountain belt regions around the world … ’.2
Eurasia
The deepest water gaps in the world are in the Himalaya Mountains. Eleven major rivers start on the southern Tibetan Plateau and pass through the mountains in very deep gorges.3,4 The Arun River flows south past Mount Everest in a water gap that is over 6 km (4 miles) deep.
The Zagros Mountains can rise as high as 3,350 m (11,000 ft) to 4,575 m (15,000 ft) above sea level in western Iran. These mountains are 1,600 km (1,000 miles) long and about 250 km (150 miles) wide. The Zagros Mountains are unique in being geologically ‘young’ and little modified by erosion. Three hundred water gaps split these mountains in gorges up to 2,440 m (8,000 ft) deep.5 The lower walls of some water gaps are near vertical, sometimes overhanging. The most impressive aspect of the Zagros drainage is that the streams and rivers appear to shun valleys, and prefer to transect mountains—numerous times:
‘The Zagros drainage pattern is distinctive by virtue of its disregard of major geological obstructions, both on a general scale and in detail. ... Certain streams ignore structure completely; some appear to “seek” obstacles to transect; others are deflected by barriers only to breach them at some point near their termini. Many streams cut in and out of anticlines [ridges] without transecting them completely, and a few cross the same barrier more than once in reverse direction.’6
United States
There are myriad water gaps, small and large in the western United States:
‘In numerous places, especially in the Southern and Middle Rockies, rivers cut across uplifts cored by resistant rocks in preference to what appear to be more logical courses on softer rocks around the uplifts.’7
The Shoshone River starts in Yellowstone Park and flows east without deviation straight through the Rattlesnake Mountains
For instance, Hells Canyon cuts through the Wallowa Mountains in northeast Oregon and the Seven Devils Mountains in Idaho.8 This water gap is the deepest in North America. Measured from the Idaho side, one segment of the canyon is 2,440 m (8,000 ft) deep. The Snake River flows westward in southern Idaho and then takes a right turn and flows 145 km (90 miles) through the gorge.
The Shoshone water gap through the Rattlesnake Mountains west of Cody, Wyoming, is 760 m (2,500 ft) deep (figure 1). The Shoshone River starts in Yellowstone Park and flows east without deviation straight through the Rattlesnake Mountains. We would have expected the river to have taken the easiest route, south around the Rattlesnake Mountains and through a low spot (figure 2).9
Water gaps are numerous through the Appalachian Mountains.10 This area is outstanding for the study of water gaps: ‘The Appalachian Valley and Ridge Province is the classic area for the problem of rivers cutting through the narrow ridges of fold-thrust belts.’11 One of the most famous series of water gaps is the Susquehanna River cutting through the eroded Appalachian Mountains north of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania (figure 3). The Susquehanna River passes right through multiple ridges with little deviation from its course.
Australia
Many water gaps are found in Australia. Just west of Sydney, the Nepean River flows through one. In Central Australia, the Finke River flows across at least three ranges, the rims of which have been ‘dated’ at some 400 million years old. How such erosive processes could have continued for so long defies credibility, but rather than questioning the dates, evolutionist geologists now tout the Finke River as being the oldest river in the world.
Origin of water gaps a major mystery
There are many hypotheses for the origin of water gaps based on slow processes of erosion over millions of years. However, these ideas are rarely based on evidence. Thomas Oberlander has many sobering thoughts about research on water gaps:
Diagrams by Peter Klevberg
‘ … the question of the origin of geological discordant drainage [water gaps] has almost always been attacked deductively, leading toward conclusions that remain largely within the realm of conjecture’.12
Water gaps explained by the retreating floodwater
The biblical Flood provides a simple solution. After the whole globe was covered,13 the mountains rose and the valleys sank, so the water ran into the current oceans (cf. Psalm 104:8, NASB).14 At first, the water would have flowed in enormous sheets, and this explains the many planation surfaces that look like someone took a giant plane to the terrain and shaved it flat.15 This is sometimes called the Abative, or Sheet phase of the Flood (figure 4).16
As the water flow reduced, flow concentrated into huge channels, which had the potential to erode valleys and gorges. This was the Dispersive or Channelized phase.16
Since water gaps are located on the surface of the Earth, and formed after much erosion of the land had already taken place, they were cut during the Dispersive phase. They would form rapidly whenever channelized floodwaters flowed perpendicular to a barrier (figure 5).
Example from the Lake Missoula flood
Is there any evidence that water gaps were cut during the Channelized phase of the Genesis Flood? One example is a water gap formed in the gigantic Lake Missoula flood in Washington State.17 At the peak of the Ice Age, an ice dam in northern Idaho formed glacial Lake Missoula. The lake was 610 m (2,000 ft) deep when the dam broke. It emptied in a few days. Water over 100 m (300 ft) deep rushed through eastern Washington, carving canyons up to 300 m (almost 1,000 ft) deep.
The Palouse River, rising in the mountains of northern Idaho, used to flow westward through Washtucna Canyon and eventually into the Columbia River (figure 6). The Snake River flows parallel to Washtucna Canyon about 16 km (10 miles) south separated by a basalt lava ridge. The Lake Missoula flood rushed into Washtucna Canyon and overtopped the ridge in two places. The eastern breach eventually eroded into a narrow, vertically walled canyon 150 m (500 ft) deep.
After the flood, the Palouse River, instead of continuing to flow westward down Washtucna Canyon, as before, now takes a 90° left hand turn. It flows through the ridge in a gorge called Palouse Canyon and into Snake River. Palouse Canyon, occupied by Palouse Falls (figure 7), is now a water gap formed during the Lake Missoula flood.
The post-Flood Palouse River and Canyon show how water gaps would have eroded rapidly in the monstrously larger Genesis Flood. Since these water gaps are worldwide and occurred at about the same time geologically, they show that the Genesis Flood was global, not local.
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http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/5777
BTW: The modern view of the Flood by Creationists who accept a global flood is that it was a tectonic event. The majority of the water came from the Ocean which had far less salinity as the observed rates display.
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monty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | Water gaps are strong evidence for the Genesis Flood
by Michael Oard
Many rivers, after travelling along a valley, suddenly turn and flow through a narrow gorge that cuts through a mountain range, a ridge, or a plateau. Such gorges are called water gaps. It looks like the river cut the gorge, but how could it? Surely, if the river had carved the landscape slowly over long ages, it would have flowed around the barrier instead of flowing through it. So was the gorge eroded first by something we don’t see happening today?
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Orogenesis (mountain building) tends to occur rather slowly (inches per year or millimeters per year). If the erosive forces are greater than that, then a mountain system will be punctuated with water gaps. These gaps co-develop with the mountain system - the river was flowing before the mountain existed.
Mystery solved.
Last edited by monty on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Why can't they grow within months if they had the proper stimulus?
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monty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Why can't they grow within months if they had the proper stimulus? |
They can grow faster if greater pressure is applied - the inches or millimeters per years is a typical figure, although not 100% representative.
When mountains grow slowly (as most have), the rock layers behave differently than when sudden, massive force is applied. In most orogenesis, the rock behaves in a 'plastic' manner and reshapes itself. When sudden massive force is witnessed, it shatters the rocks.
Last edited by monty on Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| monty wrote: | | iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Why can't they grow within months if they had the proper stimulus? |
They can grow faster if greater pressure is applied - the inches or millimeters per years is a typical figure, although not 100% representative.
When mountains grow slowly (as most have), the rock layers behave differently than when sudden, massive force is applied. In most orogenesis, the rock behaves in a 'plastic' manner and reshapes itself. When sudden massive force is witnessed, it shatters the rocks. |
If you'd be interested, here is a keyword search on orogenesis: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/creationontheweb?q=orogenesis&hl=en&lr=
Which mountains have been observed to form within months that have the layering shattered?
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monty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: |
Which mountains have been observed to form within months that have the layering shattered? |
There are five general ways that mountains are built (Volcanic activity, Folding, Faulting, Dome building, and Erosion). Within these 5 ways, there are many other phenomena to be considered. If you are really interested in geology, study these in depth and get back with us. Mountains have gotten a great deal of study and consideration - but not by the person who wrote that page that you posted. Rivers flowing through mountains can be explained within an evidence-based framework of modern geology ... rather simply. I don't have my library with me, and am not inclined to spend time researching something for naught - regardless of what can be shown, you seem rather attached to the idea that a recent great flood is responsible for everything, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. |
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CanyonWind
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Last time it was biblicalgeology.com, this time it's creationontheweb.com.
I wonder if maybe just once this guy is going to get scientific information from a scientific source.
If somebody was actually interested in geology instead of being a used car salesman, there's plenty of good sources on geology easily available.
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Planet crumbled but Superman he forced himself to carry on
Forget Krypton and keep going.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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OK... with "Creation Geology" you have to explicitly reject uniformitarianism... and I really don't see how you can do that and still claim to be able to explain anything. Without uniformitarianism, you can't make any actual claims about the past because you can just say that it worked differently back then. Kind of a cop-out.
BTW, do you reject nuclear physics? Or trigonometry? Or the constancy of the speed of light? Because you've got to reject all of these things to be able to claim a recent creation.
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CanyonWind
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Excuse my ignorance, Orwell, but how uniform do things have to be to be uniformitarian?
Like we just got done with the Pleistocene, if we're actually done with it, and the world's climate over the last million years or so could more accurately be described as psychopathic than uniform.
Seems impossible to deny that there have been some extremely dramatic events in the history of landforms and lifeforms, and that vastly changed circumstances could sometimes invoke different processes.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that Noah, Ham, Shem, and Japeth and their wives somehow managed to capture two animals each from every species that lives only in Australia and North and South America, then they somehow managed to get them back to the middle east, then they managed to keep them all alive in a boat for forty days and forty nights, then they managed to get them all back where they came from after all other terrestrial life was wiped out in a flood that left no trace in the geological or the fossil record, and that an inbreeding event on that scale left no indication in the DNA of modern plant and animal populations.
I'm not saying I'm the smartest guy in the world, but I ain't dumb enough to believe that.
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Folks said
His family were all dead
Planet crumbled but Superman he forced himself to carry on
Forget Krypton and keep going.
-Crash Test Dummies
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monty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CanyonWind wrote: | Excuse my ignorance, Orwell, but how uniform do things have to be to be uniformitarian?
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Not very. Uniformitarianism holds that the forces that we at work today are the ones that have operated over millions of years to produce the current landscape. Uniformitarianism includes slow forces (erosion, uplift, tectonic movement) as well as more dramatic events like massive volcanic explosions and big floods and meteor impacts. In uniformitarianism, one can accept the idea that some periods of Earth's history may have had a lot more volcanoes, and other times (like the end of the ice age) may have had many more large regional floods. This approach does not require constancy - except it doesn't suspend the laws of physics 6000 years b.p. to allow for mythic events.
Catastrophism, on the other hand, is a creationist doctrine. It goes beyond the simple idea that catastrophes can happen (an idea which uniformitarianism accepts) to say that there was gigantic catastrophe that only Noah and family survived, which is responsible for everything we see today.
Noah probably lived in Turkey, in a desert valley below sea level (like the Dead Sea Valley, Africa's Rift Valley, or Death Valley in the US). There is evidence that the wall of land that protected this valley from the Sea failed 7600 years ago at the Bosphorus, and that the great flood of the Bible came out of this event. Villages have been found 100 meters below sea level, which have been dated around 7000 - 8000 years b.p.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory |
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Triangular_Trees
What is right is sometimes found on the left.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Its clear the author doesn't know the first thing about layers of soil.
If you want to prove something is solely biblical, you must first explain why the known science on the issue is false. And you can't do that, if you are avoiding the known science behind the phenomena you are trying to explain as the author is doing
I suggest he stop relying on elementary school knowledge to explain the layers of earth that comprise the mountains, and move on to high school and college level geology. Then he would A) have accurate pictures of the layers of earth and B) would know the proven science behind the paths he is seeking to explain
This guys thought on rivers is equal to the ancient thought that women must have one less rib than men because they were created from a man's rib. Everyone agreed because no one could be bothered to take a few minutes to count the ribs of a woman |
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | BTW, do you reject nuclear physics? Or trigonometry? Or the constancy of the speed of light? Because you've got to reject all of these things to be able to claim a recent creation. |
That is false.
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Orwell
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| iamnotaparakeet wrote: | | Orwell wrote: | | BTW, do you reject nuclear physics? Or trigonometry? Or the constancy of the speed of light? Because you've got to reject all of these things to be able to claim a recent creation. |
That is false. |
Not really. Nuclear physics (calculated and experimentally determined radioactive half-lives) contradicts ideas of a Young Earth, as does the fact that we see light originating from sources well over 6000 light-years away. Well, I suppose in the latter case it is only trig OR the speed of light that needs to be wrong. So, either explain the mistakes mathematicians have been making or find out why the entire field of theoretical physics for almost the past century is wrong in its ideas about light. Dismissive comments like that one only annoy me, as you continue to show yourself to be unwilling to look at any actual science. Can you reconcile YEC ideas with basic physics? If so, I will be quite impressed, because many people more intelligent than yourself have tried and failed.
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iamnotaparakeet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Do you actually want answers, or do you intend just to change my viewpoint?
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CanyonWind
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe he's got an ulterior motive for encouraging you to prove that something you have to say might possibly have any value.
Like he's hoping for a cut of the money when you win your Nobel Prize for proving that you know more than every scientist in the world.
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Folks said
His family were all dead
Planet crumbled but Superman he forced himself to carry on
Forget Krypton and keep going.
-Crash Test Dummies
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