 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Changing people or changing government? |
| Changing people |
|
23% |
[ 3 ] |
| Changing government |
|
46% |
[ 6 ] |
| Both equally |
|
30% |
[ 4 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 13 |
|
| Author |
Message |
burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: Changing people or changing government? |
 |
|
Ok, is it more desirable to change the people, e.g. make them more intelligent, either through education or genetics or whatever, to suit the needs of predetermined ideal political system or to change the existing political system to suit the needs of the people?
Or should both ideas carry equal weight?
Just a question that's been running through my head.
_________________
"Was that the bad thing?"
"Floss is boss. Floss is boss! FLOSS IS BOSS!!!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Systems that attempt to change people fail, and even imagining them leads to a nightmare. (see 1984 and Brave New World fr worlds where the person was changed for the political system) The political system is a means of organizing society, society is constructed to serve the needs and wants of those who comprise it. Governments should be built around the people they have to work with. Besides, it's easier to change the government than to change the people, so why would you bother changing the people?
If a political system can not succeed with the materials (ie people) available to it, then it can not be the predetermined ideal. If it fails in reality, it's a lousy system. Not much else to it.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
|
| Back to top |
|
burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Orwell wrote: | Systems that attempt to change people fail, and even imagining them leads to a nightmare. (see 1984 and Brave New World fr worlds where the person was changed for the political system) The political system is a means of organizing society, society is constructed to serve the needs and wants of those who comprise it. Governments should be built around the people they have to work with. Besides, it's easier to change the government than to change the people, so why would you bother changing the people?
If a political system can not succeed with the materials (ie people) available to it, then it can not be the predetermined ideal. If it fails in reality, it's a lousy system. Not much else to it. |
Interesting. I was reading the alternatives to democracy thread and I began thinking that if one of the main failings of democracy is that too many people do not understand it then might it be desirable to make them (whoa, that makes me sound mental, but ok). I'm not talkiing about whether or not this is feasible, by the way. I actually think that we the government should change to suit the people, but I just wanted to throw the question out there.
_________________
"Was that the bad thing?"
"Floss is boss. Floss is boss! FLOSS IS BOSS!!!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Also, theocratic governments by nature do follow the idea that the populace must be converted, since a theocracy's ideals are already written in their scriptures, so its not like this isn't purely theoretical.
_________________
"Was that the bad thing?"
"Floss is boss. Floss is boss! FLOSS IS BOSS!!!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6127
Location: Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I doubt the question can be easily answered. Changing government can, on occasion, change people. The current US elections are at least partially the result of government enforcement of anti-discrimination laws elevating the capabilities of blacks to attain more equality. Obviously it is not a total change but these changes come slowly and must be insisted upon to accomplish results. And when people are oppressed beyond human tolerance people can change governments but, as demonstrated in many oppressive governments existing today, this does not come easily. |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 30
Posts: 11411
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If you change people you automatically change government because goverment is made up of people. Changing people from the inside-out is the best kind of change. If you can inspire people to make changes in themselves rather than force them to change, this is ideal. If people in general strive to improve themselves, you'll have a grassroots effect which will find its way into every sector of society. Including goverment. |
|
| Back to top |
|
crackedpleasures
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 14, 2007
Posts: 1828
Location: In between the bright lights and the far unlit unknown, CZ
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Both. I do think changing people automatically leads to changes in voting patterns. Of course to enforce change is practically impossible, maybe "educating society" is a better term than to change a society. It is pretty much a circle, a government needs to work on educating its people constantly but those changes in social norms will in their turn lead to a change of political establishment. It is an ongoing process or atleast it should be, lately I see very worrying changes as we take a step back to outdated conservative values 
_________________
You did it again, yes, you in the mirror
You put your faith in a cruel world...
All my dead friends come to haunt, harm and hinder
Never letting go, here to drag me down to hell
(London After Midnight) |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sargon
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 248
Location: Fairfax, VA
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the real world, you cannot change the nature of man through government or "inspiration". The Soviets thought they could create a "New Soviet Man" to help ensure Communism's success when it was starting out. They failed miserably at creating their new Soviet man despite all their indoctrination and "inspirational" efforts. If there is some general reason big, people may change on their own (i.e. we discover a cure for death), but barring that, most attempts to change people ultimately fail. You can influence people's marginal behavior through laws (for better or worse), but that is not really changing people, only influencing their behavior in that situation.
Sand, I highly doubt Obama is where he is right now because of some 40 year old affirmative actions laws (although people might be "desperate" to have a black president, maybe, but I wouldn't argue that is partially related to those old laws). People follow laws because they have to, not necessarily because they enjoy it, and people today seem to enjoy being apart of the cult of Obama. You could try and argue the law made people "like" blacks, but at the time (and to an extent, today for some people), it seemed to deepen their dislike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6127
Location: Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If you think the civil rights movement and subsequent federal laws and operations to support them had no influence on Obama's capability to secure the Democratic candidacy for president then you are exceedingly stupider than I suspected. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| burnse22 wrote: | | Interesting. I was reading the alternatives to democracy thread and I began thinking that if one of the main failings of democracy is that too many people do not understand it then might it be desirable to make them (whoa, that makes me sound mental, but ok). I'm not talkiing about whether or not this is feasible, by the way. I actually think that we the government should change to suit the people, but I just wanted to throw the question out there. |
THe problem you face is implementation. At the start of the Enlightenment, it seemed as though with better education people would be able to make competent decisions. Now we know that is not true, because even with access to education most people are dolts. There's only so much you can do, and I really don't think it's possible to make such fundamental changes in people. Nor would it necessarily be desirable; I don't want to live in Brave New World.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6127
Location: Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A bit more bravery in our world which sends people out to murder each other for insanely stupid reasons is something I would much appreciate. I have a hunch the there are a lot less black people in the American South hanging from trees with barking idiots in sheets in the crowd than in the early 20th century. |
|
| Back to top |
|
Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sand wrote: | | A bit more bravery in our world which sends people out to murder each other for insanely stupid reasons is something I would much appreciate. I have a hunch the there are a lot less black people in the American South hanging from trees with barking idiots in sheets in the crowd than in the early 20th century. |
OK, but there really isn't any effective way of inducing or controlling such societal trends, at least not on a centralized level. Government anti-discrimination laws have if anything INTENSIFIED animosity toward minorities. Law of unintended consequences.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
|
| Back to top |
|
Sand
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 6127
Location: Finland
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
When kids grow up seeing minorities amongst them doing as well as they are and liking the same things they do and being more or less on the same economic level there is bound to be an improvement in the social interaction. When I was in the army it was not integrated and all sorts of racial nonsense prevailed. These days I am sure there are racial incidents but not anywhere to the extent of when I served. People, like any other animal, can be trained to behave.
Last edited by Sand on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| burnse22 wrote: | | Also, theocratic governments by nature do follow the idea that the populace must be converted, since a theocracy's ideals are already written in their scriptures, so its not like this isn't purely theoretical. |
I dislike theocracy, for a variety of reasons. Anyways, theocracies don't necessarily always change the people rather than the government. Catholic Europe in the Middle Ages had more-or-less legal prostitution. They did have laws saying the brothels must be closed on Sunday, though.  You can always change the rules of the religion to accommodate more people or you can just be lax in enforcing the rules. Islam forbids consumption of alcohol, but some caliphs were not exactly known for temperance. One was reported to have swum in a pool of wine and then imbibed enough of the contents to noticeably lower the volume.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
|
| Back to top |
|
Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 8369
Location: Room 101
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sand wrote: | | When kids grow up seeing minorities amongst them doing as well as they are and liking the same things they do and being more or less on the same economic level there is bound to be an improvement in the social interaction. When I was in the army it was not integrated and all sorts of racial nonsense prevailed. These days I am sure there are racial incidents but not anywhere to the extent of when I served. People, like any other animal, can be trained to behave. |
You're in Finland, there aren't minority races there to any appreciable extent. I go to school with people of several different races, and I never harbored any ill feelings toward other ethnicities until I saw people with lower qualifications than myself being handed scholarship money that I wasn't eligible for because of the color of my skin. That type of thing tends to engender bitterness.
And where I am (SW Ohio, in case you didn't know is "copperhead" territory) racism is still fairly prevalent regardless of any laws.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
