 
Support Wrong Planet Awareness!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mysterious_misfit
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 305
|
 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Theory of Mind bu11cr@p |
 |
|
So I'm reading the OASIS book and read a little about theory of mind. I disagree with some of the assertions. It appears that the NTs want to pathologize Aspies for not being able to correctly predict or interpret an NTs thoughts, feelings, needs, actions, etc. But it is the NTs that are unable to correctly predict or interpret Aspies' thoughts, feelings, needs, actions, etc. Who has the pathology? NTs relate to other NTs, but I believe that Aspies relate to other Aspies just fine also. It's just that the two groups don't mix really well.
NTs say that we Aspies will offend them by saying offensive things and not realizing it, so they call it a disorder. But NTs will often offend Aspies by touching them, or talking too loudly, or misinterpreting our nonverbal communication, or not leaving us alone when we are upset (and it's simply our fault that we are offended? part of our own disorder?). It is NTs that lack theory of mind that other people (Aspies) are different from themselves (unless intellectually taught about the autism spectrum).
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4286
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| WELL PUT!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 4811
Location: Ontario Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What is the definition for Theory of Mind?
Who has trouble with ToM and why? I resent your resentment.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
mysterious_misfit
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| slowmutant wrote: | What is the definition for Theory of Mind?
Who has trouble with ToM and why? I resent your resentment. |
Theory of Mind is the ability to intuitively know what another person is feeling or thinking, and the ability to predict another person's reaction to a specific stimulus. It's also the ability to understand that other people have different opinions, needs, and values from yourself.
It's all rather confusing, or maybe I'm not understanding the concept really well. I'm not sure. But really, it seems like a bunch of crap. I know full well that people have different opinions from me.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
CMaximus
Raven
Joined: Nov 04, 2007
Age: 25
Posts: 103
Location: On the outside, looking in and out. Or am I inside?
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ToM is a person's ability to empathize with others' emotions. People on the autistic spectrum are, generally according to what I've heard, (from MANY different places and in many different ways) almost definitively less able to empathize than a NT person.
That's not to say we can't try in our own way to be considerate and caring by imagining what the other person MUST be feeling.
And get (very) tired 
Also, it's not like the only misunderstandings and wrongdoings in the world are between people on the spectrum and NT people, either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1205
Location: West of the Great Divide
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That theory of mind stuff gets to me too.
I mean, c'mon. I don't understand the Japanese language. If I hear people talking in Japanese, I have no way of knowing what they're saying. That doesn't mean I don't think they're saying anything.
I don't understand the non-verbal language either. That doesn't mean I don't think other people have minds.
_________________
I can't take up my rifle
And fight 'em anymore,
But I ain't a gonna love 'em
And that's for certain sure.
-traditional |
|
| Back to top |
|
LabPet
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Alaska
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've written quite a lot on ToM.....I'm a believer but I can envision too how ToM isn't well understood and erroneously thought of as 'not knowing how to communicate.' I take instruction well, figure it out by logic, know the pattern/sequence, etc. BUT I can't begin to know what another is feeling/thinking. NTs do have emotive thought - hence I am blind.
I do care if it's genuine. But pettiness I DON'T care. I profoundly don't care.
Oh - I expect some attention. Anyone NOTICE new signature addition, below? Yes? I deeply mean it.
_________________
same nightmare, different nap
Lab Pet, therapist slayer
Lab Pet's video: Autism is Synonymous with Science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYelVlA7kDw |
|
| Back to top |
|
wob182
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: Apr 05, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 195
Location: u.k.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Theory of Mind bu11cr@p |
|
|
| mysterious_misfit wrote: | So I'm reading the OASIS book and read a little about theory of mind. I disagree with some of the assertions. It appears that the NTs want to pathologize Aspies for not being able to correctly predict or interpret an NTs thoughts, feelings, needs, actions, etc. But it is the NTs that are unable to correctly predict or interpret Aspies' thoughts, feelings, needs, actions, etc. Who has the pathology? NTs relate to other NTs, but I believe that Aspies relate to other Aspies just fine also. It's just that the two groups don't mix really well.
NTs say that we Aspies will offend them by saying offensive things and not realizing it, so they call it a disorder. But NTs will often offend Aspies by touching them, or talking too loudly, or misinterpreting our nonverbal communication, or not leaving us alone when we are upset (and it's simply our fault that we are offended? part of our own disorder?). It is NTs that lack theory of mind that other people (Aspies) are different from themselves (unless intellectually taught about the autism spectrum).
|
Hell yeah! Y should I feel all upset when ive offended someone and didnt mean to, they offend us to and that is 'normal'
_________________
I'm fed up of explaining after every post, I have dyslexia so sometimes my spelling and punctuation is off. I do use spell check doesn't always work... |
|
| Back to top |
|
mysterious_misfit
Deinonychus
Joined: Apr 25, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LabPet wrote: | NTs do have emotive thought - hence I am blind.
|
Do NTs have 100% emotive thought? Like, completely unable to think logically? Because that is how I expect animals to think - just instinctive emotions, no logic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
aoeui
Butterfly
Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Theory of mind to me just refers to the process of understanding the behavior of yourself and/or other people. Reflexive empathy certainly makes a certain level of such understanding simple (perhaps too simple,) but its not the only means that a person has to understand what someone else is thinking. The very act of trying to understand my mind helped me understand that most of the world is unlike me, which caused me to stop asking myself "why would anyone act in such and such a way, since if they were like me they'd know better," and replace it with "okay, so other people's minds actually and fundamentally work differently from my own. Then what and how are these differences and how will it make the other person think and act?" Voila, I've been making rapid progress in understanding other people since then.
As for using ToM as a mumbo jumbo synonym for empathy, dumb people say dumb things all the time. It's how they are, it can't be helped and there is no use getting worked up about it.
Science! |
|
| Back to top |
|
pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2547
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
if it were true, then men and women would understand each other perfectly... |
|
| Back to top |
|
pineapple
Deinonychus
Joined: May 01, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 346
Location: san francisco
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That's a very good point. I'm sure that if aspies rewrote the definition it would look very different.
_________________
chuck norris does not sleep. he waits.
Go here, be asexy------> http://theonepercentclub.blogspot.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
LabPet
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
Posts: 1631
Location: Alaska
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mysterious_misfit wrote: | | LabPet wrote: | NTs do have emotive thought - hence I am blind.
|
Do NTs have 100% emotive thought? Like, completely unable to think logically? Because that is how I expect animals to think - just instinctive emotions, no logic. |
No. I should have stated better. Sure, I work with some tremendous NTs - they are smart, thinking, analytical, and logical beings. However, I work in the sciences so this is a trend, different than if I were (just for ex) a Wal-Mart greeter. I love animals and relate well to them! They really don't behave just 'instincitvely,' and they DO have a logic in them. I've raised animals; they can survive conditions a human could not possiblly, because animals THINK and plan. I had a beautiful and brainy Borzoi (Russian Wolf Hound) and she could spot patterns, like a walking GPS, and find her way out of deep woods, and I'd let her lead. She did think! And cared - she would lead a human from harm, to the point of self-sacrifce.
Instinct is not equatable to emotion - nearly the reverse. No being has 100% emotive or 100% logic/thought processes - it's just not either/or. There is invariably overlap. I think the distinction is that I can, and probably you too, know the difference between 'emotion' and 'thought,' and even separte these out quite well, relative to a NT. I see NTs often operating on emotion and just not thinking. For ex: I witnessed one I know YELLING at a photocopier. Well, we all know the photocopier doesn't know or care. Being emotional with a photocopier is silly. Instead, if one uses thought/logic, just start checking: Does photocopier have paper? Toner? Setting ok? Etc.
I hope I clarified some - good catch, mysterious_misfit, I didn't clarify well.
aoeui - I think that's very insightful. Good that you can do that. In some ways, for me, I almost don't try to figure out what is going on inside another's head; I just abide by Occam's Razor. You're way is better, I'm sure. I think one thing that does save me, for sure, is that I am respectful of others, with sincerity, and I am polite. I do care about others - I'm not antisocial or asocial at all! But good point, aoeui - others do work differently and this should be taken into account.
pakled - you're just plain funny! But I agree....did you see my video clip? I had some potential book titles (in case I write a book...). One of them (this is for you pakled): Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and Aspies are from the Wrong Planet.
_________________
same nightmare, different nap
Lab Pet, therapist slayer
Lab Pet's video: Autism is Synonymous with Science: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYelVlA7kDw |
|
| Back to top |
|
cosmiccat
Supporting Member
Joined: Apr 06, 2007
Posts: 1700
Location: In my body on my 65th trip around the sun
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quoting Lab Pet:
| Quote: | | I see NTs often operating on emotion and just not thinking. For ex: I witnessed one I know YELLING at a photocopier. Well, we all know the photocopier doesn't know or care. Being emotional with a photocopier is silly. Instead, if one uses thought/logic, just start checking: Does photocopier have paper? Toner? Setting ok? Etc. |
I've witnessed the same thing with NTs and photocopiers. Invariably, especially if I was waiting to use the copier that was being "assaulted' , I would have to show them how to read the screen and find out which part of the copier was jammed, or else just fix it myself. But oddly enough, these same people would be the first to ridicule me if I didn't understand a poorly worded sentence, work assignment, instructions, etc. or if I took their words literally and followed through to the letter.
_________________
I accept chaos. I am not sure whether it accepts me. Some people are terrified of the bomb. But then some people are terrified to be seen carrying a modern screen magazine. Experience teaches us that silence terrifies people the most. Bob Dylan |
|
| Back to top |
|
Anemone
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Age: 43
Posts: 558
Location: Vancouver, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When I studied developmental psychology at uni, and did further reading a few years back, theory of mind was a form of metacognition people naturally developed age 4-5, and involved knowing that what I know/think may be different from what you know/think. (He thinks that she thinks that she thinks that he thinks . . . The bit with poison in The Princess Bride is a good example of ToM) It involves the ability to hold both my pov and your pov in my head in the same time, and be aware that they may or may not be the same thing, depending.
Empathy, on the other hand, seems to be a different form of metacognition that kicks in usually by the second birthday, though not everyone seems to have it. My mother, who is not autistic, does not seem to have it. The perpetrator in Bitter Harvest by Jane Rule didn't have it either (again, not autistic).
Sarcasm is a higher order form of metacognition that goes with the abstract reasoning that kicks in age 11-12 or so (at least in educated populations).
Of course, once you start talking about autism, then all the definitions change, and theory of mind becomes whatever we don't have. The original ToM hypothesis did not hold up very well based on the original reported data, and researchers opposed to the ToM hypothesis quickly punctured holes in the rest of it, for those that cared enough to listen.
Personally, I think it's obvious that the problem is not that we lack ToM, but we have communication problems that interfere with our dazzling people with it. Of course we have it.
Also, for empathy, I see no evidence that there is any significant difference in empathy between autists and non-autists using scales designed for non-autists (we have full range of scores), but isn't it funny how all of a sudden we don't have any when reserachers construct special scales just for studying empathy in autists.
There's a double standard in definitions: one definition for us, another one for everyone else. Don't believe them when they tell you you don't have it without carefully studying the definition used in different types of research first. Some of the research studies I read really did come across as nonsense. I can't believe some of what gets published. I can't help but thinking that it's sheer bigotry. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
