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| What is the purpose of law? |
| Justice!! |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| Reflection of society's will!! |
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10% |
[ 3 ] |
| Societal Order!! |
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51% |
[ 15 ] |
| Evil!! |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
| Other!! |
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17% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 29 |
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| Author |
Message |
makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1485
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | makuranososhi wrote: |
It's a subjective to call it evil; your second option is much clearer and direct.
M. |
It is only subjective depending upon your metaethical theories, evil being subjective is only true for moral relativists. But, to get to the point: yes, I absolutely know! The issue is that "evil" is shorter to say. To be honest, few people actually promote rent-seeking/selfish behaviors so I did not think that anyone would be so deeply concerned about the ethics of the terminology to care. I could have included "the purpose of law is to promote my own interests", but the issue would have been that so many others seek their own interests through the law that it could be argued that all of this self-seeking behavior actually reduced overall welfare for all participants anyway, and thus few would actually support the law for that reason unless other, more pressing reasons existed. Could this be considered an oversight? Perhaps. Is this really a big oversight? Not really, compared to other polls that actually include purposive bias in them. |
Well, I'm glad you recognized me (moral relativist) for who I am... although I would say that I am more a pluralist. [edit] Evil is subjective - it depends on the culture and world you have grown into. But I digress: evil. While it is shorter, it still has a different connotation that what your explanation describes; "Greed" would have been more apt, in my own opinion. So while it is not a fatal flaw to your poll, it still is a less-than-ideal option. That is all.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The issue is how we understand health in the context of society. The body though, does not have laws at all. It has chemical reactions that *must* work as necessary to. Completely impersonal... which makes sense as there are no persons in the body. |
It's a metaphor. 
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5497
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| makuranososhi wrote: |
Well, I'm glad you recognized me (moral relativist) for who I am... although I would say that I am more a pluralist. [edit] Evil is subjective - it depends on the culture and world you have grown into. But I digress: evil. While it is shorter, it still has a different connotation that what your explanation describes; "Greed" would have been more apt, in my own opinion. So while it is not a fatal flaw to your poll, it still is a less-than-ideal option. That is all.
M. |
The issue is that greed also could have been less than ideal as well. What about people who want to put the 10 commandments on every building? Now, that can be seen as evil by those who think the idea is stupid(seen as a reflection of society's will by those who don't), but it is not greedy at all even though it is completely aimed at the interests of a certain group of people. Evil is simply an option to say "the government is designed to act in manners that I think are bad", and is thus an option for those very cynical of government or anarchistic or something of that nature. It is not clearly defined because I did not want to provide an analytical definition so much as a definition based upon the perception, as "evil" is the only option that shows the law as working against what people consider "good". |
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5497
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: |
It's a metaphor. |
But, the issue is it's meaning. Does the body need justice? Order? Or an ordering mechanism(reflection of society's will)?
I mean, it is too vague for something based upon some very human-centric notions. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Justice = Good Health
Metaphor!
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makuranososhi
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1485
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | makuranososhi wrote: |
Well, I'm glad you recognized me (moral relativist) for who I am... although I would say that I am more a pluralist. [edit] Evil is subjective - it depends on the culture and world you have grown into. But I digress: evil. While it is shorter, it still has a different connotation that what your explanation describes; "Greed" would have been more apt, in my own opinion. So while it is not a fatal flaw to your poll, it still is a less-than-ideal option. That is all.
M. |
The issue is that greed also could have been less than ideal as well. What about people who want to put the 10 commandments on every building? Now, that can be seen as evil by those who think the idea is stupid(seen as a reflection of society's will by those who don't), but it is not greedy at all even though it is completely aimed at the interests of a certain group of people. Evil is simply an option to say "the government is designed to act in manners that I think are bad", and is thus an option for those very cynical of government or anarchistic or something of that nature. It is not clearly defined because I did not want to provide an analytical definition so much as a definition based upon the perception, as "evil" is the only option that shows the law as working against what people consider "good". |
Again, it's all subjective. I see it as cultural greed, a need to possess the intellectual edifices. Neither is ideal, but you indicated a concern over length so I tried to find another one word answer.
M.
_________________
He thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
From my heart and from my hand, why don't people understand my intentions...?
Why choose a lesser evil? Vote Cthulhu 2008! |
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dongiovanni
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 216
Location: North-east Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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The purpose of law should ideally be to produce utility. The purpose of law presently is to serve the ruling class.
_________________
"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"
I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything. |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | Justice = Good Health
Metaphor! |
We're a bunch of Aspies here, sometimes you do need to be more explicit.
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WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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Orwell
Outer Party Member
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 3208
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| dongiovanni wrote: | | The purpose of law should ideally be to produce utility. The purpose of law presently is to serve the ruling class. |
Well, that still produces utility, doesn't it? Just for a smaller group of people. And who exactly is the "ruling class?" In Western liberal democracies, such as the US, many people would maintain that the people are the ruling class, and so serving the interests of the ruling class is analogous to serving the best interests of society at large.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH |
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skafather84
Platypus God
Joined: Mar 21, 2006
Age: 23
Posts: 4475
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| the government shouldn't protect people from themselves. |
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slowmutant
Templar Knight
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 5121
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I disagree. Drug use, as an example, is an illicit activity for some very good reasons. People should not be allowed to use illicit drugs except maybe at safe injection sites. Drug & alcohol addicts desperately need protection from themselves. Anyone whose life has been touched by substance abuse might agree with me.
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dongiovanni
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
Age: 20
Posts: 216
Location: North-east Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Orwell wrote: | | dongiovanni wrote: | | The purpose of law should ideally be to produce utility. The purpose of law presently is to serve the ruling class. |
Well, that still produces utility, doesn't it? Just for a smaller group of people. And who exactly is the "ruling class?" In Western liberal democracies, such as the US, many people would maintain that the people are the ruling class, and so serving the interests of the ruling class is analogous to serving the best interests of society at large. |
The "ruling class" to which I'm referring is the "ruling class" in the Marxist sense, i.e. the Bourgeoisie (those that own). The reason that this doesn't produce utility is that the Bourgeoisie doesn't have an interest in maintaining the welfare of other people unless they intentionally place the stress on the Bourgeoisie.
Re: The Ruling Class being the People
That certainly is the case from a purely political perspective; any person has equal ability to influence the government as any other person via voting. This, however, is obscured when we examine political power as an extension of economic power. The fact is that control over resource is the ultimate form of authority. If a group of people who control the extant to which society at large can acquire an essential resource, say, petroleum, they can use it as a means of economic influence, e.g. forming trusts to create greater profit margins. Then, having these superprofits gives them the ability to fund campaigns and an equal ability to refuse funding for campaigns, which, without adequate funding, will inevitably fail. If you examine the previous two (or even three) presidential elections, the winner of the elections was always the candidate with more funding.
Re: Victimless Crimes
It can be argued that, as the purpose of law is to produce social good and the banning of victimless crimes can produce social good, victimless crimes ought to be banned (using the drug example, the argument could be that banning of drugs maximises health). However, this calls into question the definition of social good. The paradigm of social good that Mill is happiness. Ultimately, all of what we try to achieve via health, education, law, and all social institutions is to maximise happiness. The issue that we run into with the above argument for the banning of victimless crimes (e.g. drug use) is that it places other values (health) as the highest value. The fallacy is that health is only an intermediate value to happiness. Therefore, I would argue that banning of victimless crimes does not produce utility.
Thus saith the utilitarian socialist.
_________________
"Weia! Waga! Woge, du Welle,
walle zur Wiege! Wagalaweia!
wallala, weiala weia!"
I won't translate it because it doesn't mean anything. |
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Phagocyte
Low-Functioning NT
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Age: 18
Posts: 1584
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Societal order.
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I am neurotypical - I just want to find out more about Asperger's Syndrome. |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1884
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Options A, B, and C; but for often then not many laws end up being D (evil).
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My Blog: http://selzshaven.blogspot.com |
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Sargon
Sea Gull
Joined: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 248
Location: Fairfax, VA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I answered other since it really is a mix of some of them. On a basic level, laws do provide some societal order; they establish rules and transfer enforcement power of those rules to some sort of government. On a basic level, there should be no real problems with this system. However, in the real world, laws are far more typical used to further some group's goals (be it from engaging in rent seeking activity, or just the desire to impose their beliefs on others) and is also used to keep most people "in line" and unquestioning of most the government's actions. Many people claim to always follow the law and believe it is moral to do so(such as much of the U.S.'s import policy is meant to protect U.S. produces, but yet the government claims it is to "protect" people for health reasons; the same goes for much of the FDA approval process). Most people don't think why some of the laws that we have exist, and will follow them blindly.
As for rent seeking, it is well documented that throughout history, businesses try and pass laws against their competitors so they can have an advantage or try to delay progress or just so they can get "free money" (railroads passing laws against highway truckers, unions trying to pass laws against machines, companies that have foreign competition trying to "protect American business", farmers and their various subsidies for various reasons, the list could go on for quite some time). If you look at the laws that are passed today relating to "commerce", most do seem fall under some sort of rent seeking activity. |
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