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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Humility - False virtue? |
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| MissConstrue wrote: | I'm not ashamed of my humility which is usually looked down on in society. The action of being kind to others.
Not saying I'm a saint though. |
"When stepped on, the worm curls up. That is a clever thing to do. Thus it reduces its chances of being stepped on again. In the language of morality: humility."
"Many a peacock hides his peacock tail from all eyes—and calls it his pride."
Nietzsche wrote of humility (not to speak of patience, wisdom, and any other virtue lauded widely by the masses) as a weakness, a false virtue which concealed the frailties and hidden crookedness in its holder.
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Dox47
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 573
Location: Bainbridge Island
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I hate false humility, but true humility, at the very least, makes someone much more pleasant to be around. Especially in the context of debate or argumentation, I despise people who argue from the position that there is no possibility that they are wrong. Unless I'm arguing on some physical thing that I can (and have) hold in my hand, I try to qualify my arguments to indicate that they are to the best of my knowledge, and not absolute pronouncements. I feel that this sort of argumentation enhances my credibility, due to my acknowledging the possibility that I am misinformed. |
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Griff
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I never understood why it is considered virtuous to have a low opinion of oneself. If you were to insist to me that you're worth far less than a mud-pie, then I might start to believe you after a while. Such confidence does tend to rub off on people. I consider mild-tongued diffidence and unassuming manners to be far more helpful. I see humility, per se, as almost strictly a device of coquettishness. Otherwise, I see little value in it. |
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2787
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Humility is something I work at, like a self development thing. I'm a christian, so I try to control the 7 deadlies - if you don't control them, they will control you.
I love nietzsche, he's a hero of mine. I think he's a great prophet and a saint. He didn't quite get it right but he came close. It probably seems contradictory but I sometimes call myself a nietzschean christian. |
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Kalister1
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Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Griff wrote: | | I never understood why it is considered virtuous to have a low opinion of oneself. If you were to insist to me that you're worth far less than a mud-pie, then I might start to believe you after a while. Such confidence does tend to rub off on people. I consider mild-tongued diffidence and unassuming manners to be far more helpful. I see humility, per se, as almost strictly a device of coquettishness. Otherwise, I see little value in it. |
 How does that work out?
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Griff
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Joined: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 1615
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Kalister1 wrote: | | Griff wrote: | | I never understood why it is considered virtuous to have a low opinion of oneself. If you were to insist to me that you're worth far less than a mud-pie, then I might start to believe you after a while. Such confidence does tend to rub off on people. I consider mild-tongued diffidence and unassuming manners to be far more helpful. I see humility, per se, as almost strictly a device of coquettishness. Otherwise, I see little value in it. |
How does that work out? |
Simple. Mild diffidence will make you less intimidating and less disruptive to others, and this promotes a more positive work ethic. Unassuming manners will make you less offensive to others, and it would reduce your chances of becoming embroiled in a conflict or sending some coworker home in a tizzy to beat or verbally abuse his wife and kids.
Outright shaming yourself, on the other hand, makes you look like an ass, and it's annoying. We call them "emos." |
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I try to model myself on the intellectual humility of Socrates. It is said that the Oracle of Delphi declared Socrates to be the wisest man in Greece because he admitted his own ignorance, unlike the self-proclaimed "all-knowing" arrogant wise-guys he pissed off. I do not claim to know anything with certainty. I have theories and hypotheses about the world that I test via sense data, but I do not believe that these tests can show us reality, only approximations of reality.
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Kalister1
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Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: | | I try to model myself on the intellectual humility of Socrates. It is said that the Oracle of Delphi declared Socrates to be the wisest man in Greece because he admitted his own ignorance, unlike the self-proclaimed "all-knowing" arrogant wise-guys he pissed off. I do not claim to know anything with certainty. I have theories and hypotheses about the world that I test via sense data, but I do not believe that these tests can show us reality, only approximations of reality. |
Socrates seems to put on the air of modesty, though in some passages its quite obvious underneath this supposed "humility" he is quite arrogant; his veiled insults of nearly everyone he meets does not help his case. Even his friend Crito is unaware of the more ambiguous jabs Socrates takes at him.
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Odin
Supreme Genius
Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Age: 22
Posts: 1885
Location: Moorhead, Minnesota, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Humility - False virtue? |
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| Kalister1 wrote: | | Nietzsche wrote of humility (not to speak of patience, wisdom, and any other virtue lauded widely by the masses) as a weakness, a false virtue which concealed the frailties and hidden crookedness in its holder. |
Nietzsche was an ass. I may not be a Christian, but I have no problem with a secularized version of the Judeo-Christian so-called "slave morality," which I consider the moral basis of the Western tradition of Egalitarianism and Equality Under The Law.
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Humility - False virtue? |
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| Odin wrote: | | Kalister1 wrote: | | Nietzsche wrote of humility (not to speak of patience, wisdom, and any other virtue lauded widely by the masses) as a weakness, a false virtue which concealed the frailties and hidden crookedness in its holder. |
Nietzsche was an ass. I may not be a Christian, but I have no problem with a secularized version of the Judeo-Christian so-called "slave morality," which I consider the moral basis of the Western tradition of Egalitarianism and Equality Under The Law. |
At least he was up front about it, unlike Socrates. I have a problem with it, people use it to hide their weakness and attack those they don't like from behind the veil of their so called "civilization". Egalitarianism can be used to enslave those who seek to rise above the limitations a civilized society places.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
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burnse22
Phoenix
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 514
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is when people pretend to have humility only in order to gain more compliments from others. True humility is more like a virtue, just acting like you do is annoying.
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| burnse22 wrote: | | The thing is when people pretend to have humility only in order to gain more compliments from others. True humility is more like a virtue, just acting like you do is annoying. |
I've always wondered if there is such a thing as true humility. A human being is hardwired to seek the approval of others, to rise above and seek power. Even in humility, people still flaunt such a virtue, and it becomes their pride.
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Awesomelyglorious
Destroyer of worlds, reaver of souls
Joined: Dec 18, 2005
Posts: 5708
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Odin wrote: |
Nietzsche was an ass. I may not be a Christian, but I have no problem with a secularized version of the Judeo-Christian so-called "slave morality," which I consider the moral basis of the Western tradition of Egalitarianism and Equality Under The Law. |
"When one gives up Christian belief one thereby deprives oneself of the right to Christian morality. For the latter is absolutely not self-evident: one must make this point clear again and again, in spite of English shallowpates."- Friedrich Nietzsche
The fact of the matter is that slave morality taken out of the context of the Christian faith is a foundationless belief as it now lacks the non-rational and ultimately mysterious element of the Christian God. If we slaughter metaphysics, then we need to gut metaethics as much. |
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Awesomelyglorious wrote: | | Odin wrote: |
Nietzsche was an ass. I may not be a Christian, but I have no problem with a secularized version of the Judeo-Christian so-called "slave morality," which I consider the moral basis of the Western tradition of Egalitarianism and Equality Under The Law. |
"When one gives up Christian belief one thereby deprives oneself of the right to Christian morality. For the latter is absolutely not self-evident: one must make this point clear again and again, in spite of English shallowpates."- Friedrich Nietzsche
The fact of the matter is that slave morality taken out of the context of the Christian faith is a foundationless belief as it now lacks the non-rational and ultimately mysterious element of the Christian God. If we slaughter metaphysics, then we need to gut metaethics as much. |
Hah, I like the jab at Utilitarians as shallow at the end there. He believed that the Utilitarians had taken Christian "slave morality" and tried to turn it secular. However, it was without basis and shallow, just like all morality.
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Postperson
The Daughter of Indifference
Joined: Jul 10, 2004
Age: 51
Posts: 2787
Location: Uz
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| My understanding of humility is that it's strong, whereas pride is weak. With pride you basically put yourself up on a pedestal - having to maintain that position is work, lots of things will threaten your ego. With humility there's no such work involved, no threats to deal with, no worrying over loss of 'position'. |
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