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merrymadscientist
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 302
Location: UK
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: A failure at work |
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Over three years ago now I came to Nice to start a new project (I am a scientist). I had always done well academically - at school, at university (top of the year) and my PhD went pretty well too even though I wasnt as interested in the subject as I should have been.
After a PhD the common route is to do a postdoc - and I got accepted by this lab in Nice, devised a project to work on and got myself funding. To begin with I was completely in love with my project and worked extremely hard, and it seemed to go well the first year, although I had hoped for too much and not fulfilled my expectations.
In the second year came on and off depression. I split up with my husband, work went less well (but I diversified into other projects) and I found some friends finally, but had social problems elsewhere. I was hospitalised for depression at the beginning of the third year and the rest of that year and the beginning of this year I was on medication. I didnt work with my former concentration (in fact I slacked off a bit, which is unlike the normal me) and diversified yet again instead of concentrating on the main project. I also lost the friends I had made to the extent that they dont speak to me at all.
Anyway, finally this year I got my data together to submit to a journal for publishing - out of all the things I have tried to do I have only one project which is anywhere near being published. But it was rejected. Since the rejection (and coming off medication) I have found to a certain extent my motivation coming back, and my boss says we will do some extra controls the reviewers of the paper suggested and then resubmit somewhere else.
However, the controls are not going to plan - basically the data does not stand up to tougher experiments - experiments that I should have thought about and done previously anyway. And looking back at some of my results, they are not as solid as I thought they are.
I am realising that I have really mismanaged this project. I am usually an unselfconfident person, but I had the arrogance? to think that I was a good scientist - better than some others maybe. And now I realise that I never did all the proper controls, that I didnt push my project into the right directions, that I assumed things from meagre amounts of data. What makes things worse is that my weak point (or rather another weak point) is that I am very bad at scientific discussion. I don't read enough and more to the point, I just can't remember what I read (particularly last year). I can't find questions in other people's work (I get too fixed on my own and am not interested in the work of others unless it directly affects mine) and if I go to a conference I am the one awkwardly standing by the coffee cups with noone to talk to.
For science you need dedication, and I just don't have it. I hate this project now. What makes things worse, is that I have arranged another postdoc in a different lab starting in August - one which is very well funded and publishes in very good journals. This time I have failed in getting my own funding, and instead the lab will pay me directly. But they expect that I will be getting this paper published. I feel really guilty that they will be paying me for doing a job which I have already proved (in this project) that I can't do very well. That basically I am just not intelligent enough for and not interested enough in.
And yes I did work hard (excepting last year), but its all been a waste - Ive achieved nothing but a trail of half-finished projects and lost friendships. The shame of this will haunt me to the end of my life. I guess if I was in Japan I would be expected to kill myself. I feel I have let down my boss here (who has been nothing but kind to me, including when I was ill). The fact is that he doesnt yet know that the controls are not going to plan (I need to wait until I have completed them), but already each time I have anounced bad news his face has dropped. And personally I care nothing anymore for the project or for publishing - Im ready to give in, which is appallingly weak of me.
I know the obvious solution would be to get out of science. But I have enjoyed it in the past, it is the only thing I am trained to do and I have no other ideas. Also if the new project goes well I might get my self-confidence back, but at the moment it is really at a low. I see all these new students with their enthusiasm and their knowledge despite the short time they have been doing science, and I have nothing to teach them. Nothing to do but hide my head in shame, now that I don't even have academic success to make up for my lack of social success, as I used to in the past. |
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Kalister1
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 09, 2007
Posts: 2882
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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You must push yourself to finish it, believe in yourself, you can do it, and then it'll all work out, if not, you died trying!
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I have always feared making mistakes so much that I will only take jobs that are not intellectually challenging.I never really understood why, other then that I knew I was smart/dumb in equal measures, just in different areas. One of the dumb areas appears to be the ability to tell my own strengths and weaknesses. I can't say this is just As, as I have had some very bad managers who did not seem aware of their own short comings.
Is is possible for you to go to a neurologist or employment coach and have some testing done to see where you maybe having problems and what your strengths are, so that you can make the most of those in science ?
I was just descussing the same problem with my BF yesterday. How I will be so excited about a new interest or project and not realize until I am half way into it that I had forgotten some important factor or I hit a brick wall of "ability". As example, I wanted to start a magazine for people with autism with an emphasis on their creative abilities. I had things lined up with ther members on here and didn't realize that my lack of executive function and computer ignorance was going to be such an obsticle. I seem to have done the sam thing with opening a store on-line selling my crafts. Haven't sold a thing and don't have the business experience or net-working skills to even advertise myself. It's pretty frustrating when you have a "plot" of how things should go and find and then hit a very real wall.
I think it might help you to get some professional help in accessing "where" you are having problems with your work. Maybe you can find a better fit in your field then the actual research ?
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Willard
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 584
Location: Confederate States of America
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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If you weren't exceptional at what you do, you would never have come this far and lasted this long. Everyone hits a wall from time to time and experiences disheartening setbacks. You must know as well as anyone story after story of one renowned scientist or another who failed repeatedly at a project into which they were sure they had a great insight, only to stumble onto something entirely unexpected and far more valuable in the grand scheme.
If you've lost your passion for it, that's one thing - I've been going through something similar the past several years - the panic of realizing that the thing I've dedicated over thirty years of my life to has devolved into something I no longer recognize and can no longer feel passionate about - and trying to decide in what direction I should go next, since my options are limited by the focus of my obsessions. If that's the case, you'll find your path in time - I've had to discover levels of patience far beyond anything I ever knew I had, but finally, after five years, things seem to be falling into place and I have to admit - if it had happened sooner, I might not have been ready to process it properly.
I suspect that perhaps there's still something in your work that can be turned to useful purpose that you've just been too close to see. Sounds like a sabbatical might be useful, if it can be managed. I think you just need to get away from the stresses for awhile, so your creative powers can regenerate. Do something unimportant, but fulfilling for a bit, until you feel positive again about your talent and potential. You have as much intelligence, insight, creativity and talent at what you do as you ever did. What you're missing is your confidence, and that can be fixed. It's okay to be tired, it's okay to lose focus for awhile, it's okay to make mistakes, as long as you take responsibility for correcting them. Don't let these things sap you of your belief in yourself. Take a break. Things will get better. You do not suck.
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"I don't mean to sound bitter, cynical or cruel - but I am, so that's how it comes out."
- Bill Hicks |
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Bozewani
Toucan
Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Age: 18
Posts: 263
Location: Somewhere in the Universe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously, you're good at science?
I am a guy and autistic but I am bad at both math and science (abysmal and irredeemable beyond any salvation) so the stereotype doesn't fit 
Anyway, in case you haven't figured it out, you don't suck, it seems like you hit another wave in the social ocean, you get those, don't let it turn into a hurricane.
In all honesty, did you know Edison failed thousands of times before he invented his thousand of inventions and without him we would not even be on this forum? (because electricity powers computers)?
It sounds like the NTs are trying to get you down, don't let them and love them anyway, they will need you when they screw up some equipment |
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merrymadscientist
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 302
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for all your replies. I know that there are many scientists who do a project and get nothing out of it and I am starting to accept that this is one of them. What I just don't understand is how I managed to convince myself that some of the 'results' that I got before were significant, whereas when I look at them now, they are clearly not. I guess I was so desperate for something to work well that I took any small positive sign.
As for passion, with the exception of this project in the first years, I am not sure I have ever really had the passion needed to be a good scientist. For a good scientist science = life, and although I have lived like this the past few years (I know noone here outside work), the thought of devoting that much of me to science in the future just seems untenable. It is expected in science that you work crazy hours for not that much pay. At the moment I am wishing I had done medicine instead (I am too old now to change and wouldnt be able to afford to retrain anyway), but when I was younger I wouldnt have been able to get through the interview for medical school, let alone talk to a patient.
And I am now seriously doubting that I do have AS - I went through a phase when I was quite convinced because it explained my social awkwardness, lack of understanding of other people, rigidness of routine and inability to give affection (which led to my marriage break up - in fact it was my ex who suggested AS) and just general feeling of not fitting in. But the more I read on this site I realise I am lacking major diagnostic area - I don't really have special interests and that focus on one thing that people describe, or sensory problems, and I have an NTs desire for social interaction and approval. Also, as far as I remember I was OK as a little kid - it only started being obvious as a teenager. So I don't feel as though I fit in anywhere anymore.
I am actually going on holiday tomorrow - extremely badly planned timing as I am supposed to be rushing around getting this paper finished, but I decided it a long time ago and I hate making changes to decisions I made. I am going walking with my ex-husband (the only real good friend I have who will put himself out for me), so that is something purposeful but taking me away from my project, which may be a good thing. I don't know if I will be able to enjoy it (I almost never end up really enjoying my holidays) but at least it will be a break. Then after I come back I will probably have to have a serious discussion with my boss about these controls not working. |
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ignisfatuus
Raven
Joined: Feb 06, 2008
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But the more I read on this site I realise I am lacking major diagnostic area - I don't really have special interests and that focus on one thing that people describe, or sensory problems, and I have an NTs desire for social interaction and approval. Also, as far as I remember I was OK as a little kid - it only started being obvious as a teenager. So I don't feel as though I fit in anywhere anymore. |
Perseverations and sensory sensitivity are not universal symptoms. The only keystone symptom, the lack of which virtually precludes a diagnosis, is social impairment. Yearning for social contact is also present in many with AS. It's the making connections that proves difficult.
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"In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning." George Orwell |
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Apple_in_my_Eye
Snowy Owl
Joined: May 08, 2008
Age: 39
Posts: 131
Location: Lake of Fire
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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^ that has been my understanding also. And as far as intense interests I think "serial monogamy" is the pattern for many ASD people. And that depression/nurnout can really damp that down (to where nothing seems interesting).
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"We have laws against it precisely so we can get away with it." -- Syriana (2005) |
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Willard
Phoenix
Joined: Mar 24, 2008
Posts: 584
Location: Confederate States of America
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed. I could count a dozen remarks in your posts that are giant Aspie red flags. Not everyone exhibits the same symptoms to the same degree, but I definitely think you are on the spectrum.
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"I don't mean to sound bitter, cynical or cruel - but I am, so that's how it comes out."
- Bill Hicks |
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marshall
Under the whirlwind
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Age: 28
Posts: 1427
Location: North West United States
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I feel for you. I’m in a PhD program right now and in the process of changing advisors because I lost interest in my current advisors style of research. Because of my disability I’m not able to do research for someone else if I’m not completely excited in the project they have for me. I just know that writing papers for my advisor on a project that I’ve already burnt out on isn’t going to be possible. I’m just not good at doing things solely to please someone else. There's no reward in that for me. |
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CanyonWind
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Posts: 1279
Location: West of the Great Divide
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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There was an incident when I was in army basic training.
Senior Drill Sergeant Muldanado walked out of the barracks with a big smile on his face, carrying two pairs of boxing gloves. We broke formation and gathered around him. He asked for volunteers, and hands went up all over.
He picked out two guys, one of them was white and one of them was black, but it didn't seem like that was deliberate.
They were going along about even, without an obvious winner. The black guys in the company were mostly cheering for the white guy, which seemed strange, because this was a racist time. The white guy's name was Whipple, but they were calling him "Whip."
The black guy landed a really solid punch, almost knocked Whipple down, but he stayed on his feet, staggering.
I heard one of the black guys yell, "The best get hit, Whip."
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Folks said
His family were all dead
Planet crumbled but Superman he forced himself to carry on
Forget Krypton and keep going.
-Crash Test Dummies
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2765
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Science is proving what does not work. That other stuff is an accident.
Anyone can improve on what works. Marking dead ends will save the future huge amounts of time.
What the Scientific Method proves is we are wrong most of the time. |
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merrymadscientist
Deinonychus
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 302
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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A bit of an update. I went on holiday unbelievably stressed - and a couple of days in I had completely forgotton about work and was happier than Id been for ages! Made me realise how miserable my life here is. I was on a walking holiday, and the physical exercise, coupled with sun, fantastic scenary and the sense of achievement in completing a step each day, really took all other concerns away.
Since coming back to work, the old depression has come back in. However, I made a decision on holiday - instead of going to Germany which I was dreading (it was a good lab and an interesting project, but I was so scared of being lonely and unhappy there), I have decided to go back to the UK - back home! And although I am still depressed a lot of the time about how unsuccessful my work and social life has been here in France, I have had moments of intense excitement thinking about what I might do next.
At the moment it is looking like I might be able to go back and work in Sheffield, which is where I did my PhD (where I was successful) and where I still have the only real good friends I possess outside my family. I have stopped caring about my career so much (although there are good labs there so no need to be ruining that), and after speaking to my boss here, it is still possible that we could publish something. He is acting a bit awkward with me since I told him of the negative developments in my work, and is obviously disappointed, but I am considering now that my time here has been an incredible experience, even though it didnt turn out like my dreams. And I am not sure any more that I want to get high up in science - I am quite happy doing my own small project and changing every few years to a new one.
So things are looking quite hopeful, even though I still spend a lot of my time wishing that I was dead in between being excited (it would just be easier).
Thanks for all your comments and replies. It was really useful to me at the time and I appreciate them a lot. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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A walking Holiday sound awesome. Did it make you consider being a sheepherder ? What a great life...(when it isn't to windy,cold,rainy and the wolves aren't to hungry  )
I have the same mix of elation and flashes of suicide thoughts. I think it is just away of dealing with the stress f change...even good change IS change and is hard work and "scary unknowns". Sometimes I think it just means I need a nap.....a really long nap.
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Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.Lang
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