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Stimshieme
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 174
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 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Iran's proud but discreet Jews |
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I just want general opinions on this. What do you people think who call Iran a dictatorship or anti-semitic or don't care about this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5367892.stm
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Free Palestinians. They are the new Jews of the 1930s.
"Idiots are fun. It's no wonder every village wants one." - House.
"They wish to cure us...and I say we are the cure" - Magneto |
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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The country, not so much. The government, oh hayul yeah. "Wipe Israel off the map" doesn't sound very friendly to me.
But then, having an opinion on the Middle East nowadays can get ya shot or blown up, so ignore the above... |
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Stimshieme
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| pakled wrote: | The country, not so much. The government, oh hayul yeah. "Wipe Israel off the map" doesn't sound very friendly to me.
But then, having an opinion on the Middle East nowadays can get ya shot or blown up, so ignore the above... |
What do you mean "blown up"? As in you get bombed by terrorists of because of the government?
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Free Palestinians. They are the new Jews of the 1930s.
"Idiots are fun. It's no wonder every village wants one." - House.
"They wish to cure us...and I say we are the cure" - Magneto |
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psych
OTTer
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1943
Location: w london
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| pakled wrote: | | The country, not so much. The government, oh hayul yeah. "Wipe Israel off the map" doesn't sound very friendly to me... |
Im not an apologist for the Iranian gov, but he didnt actually say that at all.
| Stimshieme wrote: | | I just want general opinions on this. What do you people think who call Iran a dictatorship or anti-semitic or don't care about this? |
If you look up the etymology of the term semite, it means arabian. |
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Khan_Sama
Velociraptor
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Age: 19
Posts: 428
Location: India
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| psych wrote: | | pakled wrote: | | The country, not so much. The government, oh hayul yeah. "Wipe Israel off the map" doesn't sound very friendly to me... |
Im not an apologist for the Iranian gov, but he didnt actually say that at all.
| Stimshieme wrote: | | I just want general opinions on this. What do you people think who call Iran a dictatorship or anti-semitic or don't care about this? |
If you look up the etymology of the term semite, it means arabian. |
Actually, the the sentence that Ahmadinejad used literally translated to "wipe off the map", but actually meant "change the regime". Ahmadinejad is Bush's middle eastern counterpart, he's also well known for saying dumb things.
Semite is technically used to describe any people speaking a semitic language, such as the Arabs, Berbers, Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc, but since the 20th century, has mainly been used to describe the Jewish people.
Btw, the news article on BBC is slightly incorrect. Ahmadinejad is not an "ultra-conservative" in the Islamic sense, he's a moderate reformist (less liberal than the previous reformists). |
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MissConstrue
Aquarius
Joined: Feb 05, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 11472
Location: Anywhere but HERE!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Meh
Both sides are bickering and there are many innocent bystanders in middle of it. It's been going on for thousands of years and it never gets old. I believe what really flames it is the philosophy that of which is "an eye for an eye." Only problem is it's going to be that way for a long time with all the propaganda and not to mention war being involved. That's just my opinion on the subject.
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2765
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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I read, many works have been translated several times, it is hard to believe they started from the same source.
A one state solution can be translated wipe Israel off the map.
What the Jewish people said in the article shows a long tolerance of other religions.
I take the press about as serious as hollywood.
It seems no different than Americans going to Cuba, through Mexico. A state of something exists, but it is ignored by most. Cuban Americans cannot directly visit their relatives in Cuba, but if they go through Mexico, no problem.
As for being enemies, is anyone old enough to remember the Iran Contra Affair? Reagan got Iran and Israel to help run guns to the Contras, which Congress had forbidden. Those were the same people who made Regan a gift of the hostages before he took office.
As the Jews in the article point out, it was not the Arab, Islamic, that tried to exterminate them, it was Europeans.
So is this some effort to transfer Euro-guilt on someone else?
The point of propaganda is coming out, oil prices have been jacked up, and oil has to do with oil companies, who should now be given all rights to all the offshore oil, to make America safe from camels.
All problems were caused by blocking drilling around Florida, Repent!
This is a badly written stage play.
The Parsi are a great people.
There is Iranian oil in your car.
If they invest their income into safe and clean atomic power, as McCain is promoting, they will be conserving oil, in the ground.
If they conserve oil, they will produce less CO2.
Anyone else would be getting a Green Energy Award. |
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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so if 'wipe Israel off the map' is only 'change the regime' (something the Israelis do on a regular basis; it's hard to get someone to run the place at all... what does 'Death to America' mean?
If someone tells you the same thing for 25 years, pretty soon you're going to figure out they mean it.
Persians (well, a good number of them) are actually Aryans. There's some Semites in there, just not as many as you'd think. |
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2765
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Well the Shah of Iran, Resa Pavlovi, was a CIA puppet. They set up his Secret Police, SAVAK, that killed, after proper torture, anyone who could be a threat.
They were taught it was better that SAVAK killed people, than they had Communist thoughts.
A lot of good people died, the educated, those in any power, writers, news papers, it was an American Cambodian Killing fields.
Rising to any high rank, General of the Army, was almost a sure death sentence.
All bases of power were attacked. It was a State run by terror.
When the Shah fled, taking the Peacock Throne, encrusted with jewels, the Americans wanted to put his son in power. The Shah had become Shah by deposing his father for the British, and America got involved.
Shah Junior was being trained in fighter jets in New Jersey for the invasion, when the American Embassy was suddenly closed, and "Death to America" meant the people would fight a new Shah, and wanted a democratic government.
SAVAK agents were hunted down, and their CIA friends. It was ripped out by the roots.
The Shah was the same as Batistta in Cuba, Samosa in Nicaragua, Marcos in the Phillipines.
As I recall Americans used to say "Death to the Crown" "Down with King George"!
From 1770 to 1815 it was a common thing to say.
They did get rid of a King, did get rid of his oil buddies, did get rid of SAVAK, and sought the freedom of a Democratic country.
The President is fun, but has no real power. Power is shared throught the people.
I can see how it went,
Give all oil rights to Haliburton, "No."
Do as you are told, "No."
We will invade! "You will lose millions."
We will bomb you! "That would be an act of war, we would then attack your countery, by closing the Persian Gulf. All American ships would become rightful targets."
We will have Israel bomb you in unmarked planes! "They could be wiped off the map in one night."
We will send you exploding cigars, "I do not smoke."
We will rob our own people and blame it on you! "You already do."
And my best to the Rafajah family of Tehran, You are in my thoughts! |
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pakled
"Bless his Heart"
Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Age: 50
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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...all this is known to me. Difference is, we stopped saying 'death to the crown' a couple centuries ago. The Iranians are still saying it. I know we'll never be friends, and may never get along, but maybe we can just ignore each other. After all the wonderful things we've done for them lately (getting rid of Saddam, breaking the Taliban, turning a lot of Shi'a towards Muqtada 'the anti-American cleric' Sadr, they might be grateful.
I take it back; without George Bush Ahmedinijad would be impossible; wthout Ahmejenidad, Bush would be retired... |
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sartresue
Radical Aspergian
Joined: Dec 19, 2007
Posts: 2153
Location: The Castle of Shock and Awe-tism
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Iran's proud but discreet Jews |
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Old habits of a proud people topic
The article actually contains mixed messages about how the Jewish Disapora community in Iranl feel about living there. They seem to be a tolerated oddity, and there may be damn good practical reasons why they do not fly Israeli flags on their synagogues.
These Jews may be proud, but toleration is a double edged sword. There are not enough of them to cause the majority Muslim population concern. Besides, they are a conservative lot. Their presence is 3,000 years. Who would want to move when you have roots that deep? This is also a partial reason Europe's Jews did not leave in droves in the 30s (notwithstanding countries who feared letting them in and Palestine out of bounds).
Many Jews did leave Iran upon creation of the State of Israel. The remaining Jews, as I stated, may have feared that which they did not know. Iran also knows that Israel would not obliterate their country if it would mean death to an innocent minority. And the situation in Syria is far worse for the Jews there. 
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Awe-Tistic Whirlwind
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Inventor
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 16, 2007
Posts: 2765
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Oh, they are grateful, this has taken a country looted by the Shah, he kept the money offshore, beaten down, uneducated, without schools, health care, and having so little trust in government they had to setup a religious caretaker, and restored the Persian Empire, as a Democracy.
Algeria was about the same when they got rid of the French, they are doing well also, one generation of freedom, and they are middle class. Azul! To the Kabyle.
America is the beacon they all follow, our ideals, not our actions.
We said Death to the Crown, after 35 years it went out of fashion, and the British burned the Patent Office first, then the White House, and a lot more of Washington, in the War of 1812. Many say they were behind that little cotton war that followed, wanting to control the world textile market. It was The Queens Anaconda Mining that wanted the Rockies, and got it.
The Queen owns half of Royal Dutch Shell, and they most likely own Haliburton. They armed the goat herd tribe of Saud, and laid claim to all of Arabia, at least the oil fields. When oil was hit in Suez, they suddenly had to have a canal there, and a canal zone.
The world knows America is just a puppet of the Queen's money. Ask China, India, Africa, what the British will do for money. Will pirate and loot for food!
I think she is the single largest owner of American stocks, and of course, Congress.
Being Queen of England does give one a business advantage.
Algeria was the first country to recognize America, they had British problems too. Iran had British problems, Europe has British problems, the world has British problems.
As all this is about money and oil, and oil is vital to our economy, we should nationalize it.
We can not let our economy be affected when the Queen finds cheaper labor in China, or wants to manipulate the price of something. The only fair tax is on assets, since 1/2 of 1% owns 98%. It would be Capital Gains if they ever sold, but they do not, so the owners of America pay no tax.
Paying $10,000 a year in tax would be 5% on $200,000. Is your net worth more than that?
A 3 to 5% tax on assets would be fair to all. It would be the first tax ever on the ownership of 98% of American assets.
The Queen's own Congress will never do it, we need to replace them.
Death to the Crown! |
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DevilInPgh
Blue Jay
Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Age: 24
Posts: 95
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure what to say of the article. On the one hand, Jews in Iran may feel secure. On the other hand, it could just be a whole bunch of Iranian propaganda, much like purported Soviet "tolerance" of Jews was believed until leaks started to come out of Russia, "Refusenik" became a political neologism, and Jackson-Vanik imposed conditions on aid to the Soviet Union. In the years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have learned that it was much worse than what we were led to believe initially. Practicing Judaism in the Soviet Union was a crime (however, the Russian Orthodox Christians were OK, as St. Basil's Cathedral was never torn down. On the other hand, hundreds of thousands of Soviet Jews grew up not knowing their religion, but only knowing they were a nationality and merely "tolerated" at that). Possession of Jewish texts was a crime. Heck, possession of Leon Uris's "Exodus" was a crime. Immigrating to Israel was not only routinely denied, but anyone who sought it was soon out of a job, unable to find work, or even hauled away to a gulag.
Also, there are other stories of what goes on in Iran, such as forcing Jews to work on Shabbat, discrimination in housing, employment, and education, and extreme difficulty in teaching Hebrew, all outlined in the US State Department's 2004 International Freedom Religious Report on Iran. |
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Stimshieme
Snowy Owl
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DevilInPgh wrote: | I'm not sure what to say of the article. On the one hand, Jews in Iran may feel secure. On the other hand, it could just be a whole bunch of Iranian propaganda, much like purported Soviet "tolerance" of Jews was believed until leaks started to come out of Russia, "Refusenik" became a political neologism, and Jackson-Vanik imposed conditions on aid to the Soviet Union. In the years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have learned that it was much worse than what we were led to believe initially. Practicing Judaism in the Soviet Union was a crime (however, the Russian Orthodox Christians were OK, as St. Basil's Cathedral was never torn down. On the other hand, hundreds of thousands of Soviet Jews grew up not knowing their religion, but only knowing they were a nationality and merely "tolerated" at that). Possession of Jewish texts was a crime. Heck, possession of Leon Uris's "Exodus" was a crime. Immigrating to Israel was not only routinely denied, but anyone who sought it was soon out of a job, unable to find work, or even hauled away to a gulag.
Also, there are other stories of what goes on in Iran, such as forcing Jews to work on Shabbat, discrimination in housing, employment, and education, and extreme difficulty in teaching Hebrew, all outlined in the US State Department's 2004 International Freedom Religious Report on Iran. |
Th BBC is a good source. And what's more it's British and neutral. All I've read of CNN is pure biased, The BBC had crticised Iran and dedicates a whole News section on the website looking at it's history and future. How on earth can this be propoganda? It's also a democracy. And would have evacuated any Jews there like they did in Ethiopia when they were being killed there and brought them to Israel, why not of Iran?
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Free Palestinians. They are the new Jews of the 1930s.
"Idiots are fun. It's no wonder every village wants one." - House.
"They wish to cure us...and I say we are the cure" - Magneto |
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monty
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 05, 2007
Posts: 2281
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding is that the Jews of Iran are not treated nearly as poorly as the Bahais. The Jews are seen as members of an authentic religion of the book, and even though they don't accept Mohammed as a prophet, they are basically in tune with G. The Bahais, on the other hand, are seen as apostates/heretics, which makes them fair game for abusing.
The Jews in Iran are trusted with sensitive matters (military secrets, etc), nor that the Jews there would be treated nicely if there was a conflict between Iran and Israel (Jews will probably be widely accused of spying for Israel). |
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