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Chibi_Neko
Phoenix
Joined: Oct 24, 2007
Age: 26
Posts: 984
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Teen from faith-healing family dies |
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Sad ... very sad.
I'm reminded of an Emo Philips quote. It goes something like: "When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me instead."
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a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith.
Last edited by Fnord on Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 6726
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| A person has died and you guys are cracking wise about their beliefs. Can't you punks have a littlle respect for not-you? |
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DWill
Raven
Joined: Dec 20, 2007
Age: 21
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see any wise cracking. It is kind of infuriating that this boy died when it would of been a simple procedure to save his life. I think they should change the law to 18, because in religious families like that the children are almost absolutely obedient to their parents even after 18 or 20. At 14 very few have the will to resist, or the wisdom to make the right decision. |
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fundrazor
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 04, 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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According to Oregon state law the young man was within his rights to refuse treatment. Do I understand this belief system? No.
Do I respect this family's right to do as they choose under the laws of their state? Yep. It's called freedom of religion. Apparently everybody's religion is protected, not just mine.
If the people of Oregon don't like this, it is up to them to change the law. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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It is not wise-cracking. It is, instead, passing commentary on the attitude of blind faith when it leads to the death of others. It's sad - very sad - when a person's life is lost due to the obstinant ignorance of others.
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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slowmutant
Phoenix
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
Age: 29
Posts: 6726
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not what you said, it's how you said it. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| slowmutant wrote: | | It's not what you said, it's how you said it. |
Yeah ... you're right. I should have posted it with a more serious and sincere look on my face.
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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fundrazor
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 04, 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | | It is not wise-cracking. It is, instead, passing commentary on the attitude of blind faith when it leads to the death of others. It's sad - very sad - when a person's life is lost due to the obstinant ignorance of others. |
Wise-cracking?
You are right. You are not wise-cracking. You are passing judgement and calling names. There is a distinction.
Faith?
All real faith is blind.... it is implied in the word "faith."
Mine happens to be different from the family in question.
Obstinant Ignorance?
Perhaps obstinant ignorance is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe in what these folks did, nor do I understand it. But I don't believe in calling everybody that I don't understand or agree with "ignorant." As a person with AS, I know all too well what it is like to be ridiculed by people who did not understand me. Perhaps you never had this experience. |
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Fnord
Metasyntactic Variable
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 2363
Location: Pantopia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ignorant (adj): (1) Lacking education or knowledge; (2) Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake; (3) Unaware or uninformed.
Example: The parents were ignorant of the inefficacy of prayer.
Obstinant (adj): (1) Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate; (2) Difficult to manage, control, or subdue; refractory; (3) Difficult to alleviate or cure: an obstinate headache.
Example: The parents were obstinate in their refusal of medical treatment for their child.
What you call "Judgment" I call "Discernment".
_________________
a. Science is the vast graveyard into which all irrational beliefs are eventually laid to rest.
b. Faith is irrational belief in improvable concepts.
:: Science buries Faith. |
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krex
Phoenix
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Age: 44
Posts: 4973
Location: Village of the Damned
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Having been raised by Christian Science parents I can speak from the perspective of one child raised this way. I had no choice in not being given simple medications to deal with the common pains of illness. I was not given aspirin, cold medication or even novocaine for dental treatment. This was not my choice...I had no choice. If my parents had not gone against the church in one area...dental treatment, I would have only had a few front teeth by the time I was 16. I also had sever depression that I received no help for, that resulted in a suicide attempt by 16, that I would have died from, if I had not projectile vomited the pills a few hours later...perhaps that was their prayer that saved my life? Maybe all their prayers kept me alive but I certainly was suffering and all my own prayers to not seem to help that. Dealing with constant physical pain did teach me how to dissociate much better..unless that is just the AS ?
I have no problem with adults choosing to pray instead of going to DRs but I do have some issues with children being allowed to needlessly suffer. My parents avoided educating themselves about any medical conditions because their belief was...learning about disease would just make it stronger. If you got sick it was considered your fault for succumbing to "erroneous thought" (basically believing "Satan's lie" that humans are not perfect ideas of God. It was taught that we were made in Gods image and God could not be flawed or sick...so if you got sick it was an illusion that you were falsely believing.)<---that doesn't leave a lot of room for showing any empathy for suffering since it was your OWN fault for believing the illusion and if you tried to pray harder, it would go away. If you didn't get better it was because you didnt have enough faith.
It was an "interesting" religion if you don't mind pain. Oh, my parents would let us go to the DR if we broke an arm...so, I guess we were lucky in the regard but do to their refusal to learn anything abut internal illness...many things were ignored. Growing up with a mom who suffered from constant migraines was a little rough though. The tumor in her uterus was the size of a basketball before she had it removed. She suffered for years from that and blamed her pain on my "bad attitude" until she kicked me out at 16. Some proper medical treatment and therapy probably would have save both of years of suffering but hey....lets all honor freedom of religion...like letting 50 year old men marry 16 year old? I think we need a bit better understanding of the line between religious freedom and child abuse/neglect.
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MissPickwickian
Phoenix
Joined: Nov 27, 2007
Age: 16
Posts: 953
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Do not be afraid to laugh at death. Death is funny, if you really think about it.
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kitsunetsuki
Toucan
Joined: Feb 01, 2007
Age: 38
Posts: 250
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| In my opinion they are stupid, anyone who believes faith can heal them is an idiot and its fine with me if they die, but letting their kids die is a crime. The parents of such kids should be removed from society and not be allowed to breed. |
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Fuzzy
Ack! Thbbbt!
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 1917
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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It brings to mind the joke about the guy on the roof of his house during a flood. Its the joke that the priest of my parish told when I was a kid. Its cliche, but its true!
| no one in particular wrote: |
It had been raining for days and days, and a terrible flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
As the waters rose higher and higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away..
The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.
Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you, I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?" God gave him a puzzled look, and replied "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
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Stupid parents.
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"I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt." -Mark V Shaney |
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fundrazor
Butterfly
Joined: Jun 04, 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Fnord wrote: | Ignorant (adj): (1) Lacking education or knowledge; (2) Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake; (3) Unaware or uninformed.
Example: The parents were ignorant of the inefficacy of prayer.
Obstinant (adj): (1) Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate; (2) Difficult to manage, control, or subdue; refractory; (3) Difficult to alleviate or cure: an obstinate headache.
Example: The parents were obstinate in their refusal of medical treatment for their child.
What you call "Judgment" I call "Discernment". |
I must be only borderline AS.
I find tolerance easier and dictionary definitions trite.
I find it difficult to "discern" that my opinion is the one true opinion, and any dissenting opinions are ignorant.
I choose not to put the "azz" in "aspie." But if you want to be a solitary and insufferable bitter person, have at it. |
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