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Nikki03
Hummingbird
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: what do you think? |
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Let me first say that my sons dx's are Aspergers syndrome by his developmental pediatrician, Aspergers syndrome and bipolar-NOS by his psychiatrist and PDD-NOS, bipolar and infrequent seizures by his nuerologist. At the time we got him diagnosed he was really bad off. Since then hes had some therapy, put on meds for seizures and mood stabilization and went to preschool. His mood overall has improved tremendously as well as everything but he still stims, gets rigid at times, is emotional esp. lately says negative things, is obsessive in his speech but not as bad he dosnt retreat as much into his dinosaur world like he did before, is more open socially and not as awkward and still has self injurous behaviors. He still gets overstimulated, hyper and hates loud noises, light touch but is now wearing clothes all the time but still isnt potty training. Hel be 5 the end of this month (june). Im wondering if he doesnt have aspergers at all. He hasnt qualified for an IEP last year but we have his new eval coming up which his ddd case manager will be attendign so were hoping he will get some services because i know he wont be able to handle a full day kindergarten without no supports because he had a rough time in preschool which was 3x a week for 2 1/2 hours each day.
We were at my husbands psych. and me and my son were called in the room because hubbys doctor wanted to ask me some questions. He commented that my son is too friendly to have aspergers and it seemed to him he def. had adhd. Of course we wernt there for my son but that was his initial reactions i guess! My son was trying to talk with the doctor and rolling on the floor, licking door jams etc.My son is very friendly and socially motivated the past few months its amazing how good hes doing where as before hed immediately become a trex and just roar and stomp around obvlivious to anyone else. I already have my doubts as to whats going on with my son! Im wondering if maybe he just has bipolar which runs on my husbands side of the family big time.
Lately hes been saying hes going to kill himself for lttle things (his sandwich dropped on the ground, i pulled a tiny thorn out of his sock that HE wanted to take out himself) Today at tball he was having a hard time keeping up because his comprehension is slow but afterwards we were going to leave and he was upset because he said some kid threw dirt in his eyes and was saying something about him not reaching the ball. I had no clue what he was talking about and he started having a meltdown in the park and exclaimed loudly that he was going to kill himself and his coach was right there! I felt bad my child is saying these things and i feel paranoid that people are going to think somethngs wrong i mean what child says these things? Im not sure what to do cuz he uses the phrase loosely but he also uses them with meaning i feel sometimes. I am making an app. with his psych about this.
Are any of your children similar to my son in these aspects?? Also id like to note my son has good eye contact its just when hes stressed or overstimulated or upset where it all goes out the window. Also hes had a period of a couple of weeks where he had major paranoia, anxiety and some hallucinations as well. Ive read that alot of aspergers children have had hallucinations too is this true?
Last edited by Nikki03 on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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annotated_alice
Snowy Owl
Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 170
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I know, hallucinations are not part of Aspergers???
It sounds like it is worth reviewing with the psych. |
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2ukenkerl
Phoenix
Joined: Jul 20, 2007
Posts: 4860
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Nikki,
NO! hallucinations are NOT part of AS. Are you SURE he has hallucinations?
I can understand the meltdowns, "over reacting", etc... I have been the SAME way. I internalized it more and more. TODAY I USUALLY seem "normal", but the thoughts run free, even if they aren't expressed.
And your pulling a thorn out, or otherwise grooming/primping him is NOT considered proper in the normal male school environment, and he may not like the feeling. Some mothers consider appearance and NOT comfort/etc... The ONLY person capable of such considerations for him is HIM. And I can get hungry but WON'T eat stuff that fell on the ground, etc... And if someone CAUSED that to happen, I get angry at them. Every complaint he has there, in my mind at least, is certainly founded and reasonable. |
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traveller011212
Velociraptor
Joined: May 27, 2008
Age: 28
Posts: 476
Location: Right here!!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:17 am Post subject: Re: what do you think? |
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| Nikki03 wrote: | | Also id like to note my son has good eye contact its just when hes stressed or overstimulated or upset where it all goes out the window. Also hes had a period of a couple of weeks where he had major paranoia, anxiety and some hallucinations as well. Ive read that alot of aspergers children have had hallucinations too is this true? |
Introduction: I am a 27 yr old male with AS and Irlene's syndrome that is attending Graduate school at the moment.
I know with myself I showed symptoms much more when I was overloaded. In fact, this is still very true today.
Hallucinations may be a part of your child's seizure disorder or it could be a form of sensory overload. It sounds like your child is on the spectrum.
Your child threatening to end his own life for minor things sounds like a cry for attention, but should definitely be discussed with a professional who is well adapt a dealing with AS and HFA. The varied diagnosis sounds like a bunch of docs who probably know little more about AS and HFA than many layman. Take your son to a specialist in AS and HFA for a correct diagnosis as there have been many advances in research over the past 3 yrs that many practitioners may not know about.
As far as I know bipolar does not present until late teens or early adulthood. Also, BP is comorbid with AS or HFA along with many other disorders. This also suggests that a parent with bipolar has a higher chance of having children with AS (as well as various other traits).
I do know that on bad days my Irlene's syndrome causes me to pseudo hallucinate because of all the artifacts in my vision (the negative image left in your vision after staring at something for too long).
I would like to encourage you to find an alternative to medication as the long term effects can be devastating on a developing brain. The brain will remodel in order to compensate for the effects of the drug, which may never fully reverse. With some antidepressants this effect is actually a great side effect and can take place in a relatively short amount of time. Also, antidepressants are known to induce suicidal thoughts in young adults with increasing incidents as age decreases. Another bane the the existence to concerned parents is that many medical practitioners see drugs as panaceas that allow for quick solutions so that they can get through to the next case. Because of this many doctors with downplay the effect of drugs on children, partially because that is what the drug companies tell them. The reality is that ethics will not allow for much testing of these drugs on children. Don't trust the explanation that little evidence shows detrimental effects because that study may not have been done. Instead, make them show you the published results of the clinical trial that showed that these drugs did indeed work. Please note that I do not know the details of your child's case and he may indeed require these drugs and the prescribing doctor has actually taken the time to discuss all the options with you and is invested in your son's case.
For now all I can advise further is to keep giving your child lots of love and taking the time to answer his questions, and letting him know that even after a meltdown that he is still your child, and that you love him very much.
I hope that helps.
Finally, What you are doing is amazing and takes a great deal of patients and understanding. I really appreciate the effort you are putting into your son. It fills me with hope. |
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catspurr
Phoenix
Joined: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 781
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Hiya Niki.
It sounds like multiple issues going on.
Your child doing the roaring, stomping, licking objects and oblivious to surroundings does sound like autism spectrum.
The hallucinations sound like ill effects of drugs. Don't feel like a bad parent over that please. I know parents do feel upset over that decision. Psychiatrists will rarely ever admit that is the problem too.
If your child never had hallucinations prior to the drugs, bring this up to your psychiatrists ASAP!
The killing of himself remark. Your child may be very sensitive and has extreme reactions to minor events. This does not necessarily mean bi-polar. It could be apart of the spectrum package. Not all autistics respond the same way just like not all people respond to the same situation the same way.
It could also be that your child doesn't really mean what he says and associated that phrase with being upset.
Some people on the autistic spectrum try to be as polite as possible and learn coping skills from within, some need extra help, some develop coping skills later. Some lash out, some don't.
This is all based on my own personal experience and other children.
Hope this helps you.
Also, please try to if you can avoid multiple medications especially for really young children. Pre-school is a little too young in my opinion even under doctor's orders. You don't know if there is another agenda out there rather than what is really best for your child considering mixed messages are put out there to "Tell your kids just say no to drugs" Meanwhile the ages for psychiatric drugs are getting lower and lower. There is a profit involved. 
Use your instincts and don't let these so called rationalists play dictator because even though they can make a good point, they aren't always right.
Also, there have been several cases of people getting sucidal after certain types of psychiatric drugs. Mostly anti-psychotics and anti-depressants.
So if this started occuring after drugs, you may want to talk about taking your child off of the drugs. Don't allow the doctors to say more drugs to fix all the other drugs problems.
This is not a good time for your child to be on multiple drugs. |
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KimJ
Legend in my own mind
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Posts: 2538
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as I know bipolar does not present until late teens or early adulthood. Also, BP is comorbid with AS or HFA along with many other disorders. This also suggests that a parent with bipolar has a higher chance of having children with AS (as well as various other traits). |
BP is rare in young children but does occur. While it's also sometimes comorbid with autism, it's also often misdiagnosed in autistic people. Rapid change in emotional expression is often interpreted as "rapid mood cycling". They are drastically different things but outsiders don't see them as different at all. Dr. Temple Grandin talks about this emotional experience in some great detail. I have experienced both and realize that my husband doesn't know if I'm experiencing an extreme reaction to something or having a mood swing. My son is just autistic and he has very extreme emotional responses. Again, other "professionals" have doubted his autism because he expresses so much.
If find the multiple dx by different doctors very problematic. To my knowledge, only a developmental psychiatrist can diagnose autism. A psych that relies on old stereotypes to decide if a child is autistic is one to stay away from. (eg "too friendly" to be AS)
Frankly, I would find a good developmental psych that is recommended by an autism org. While my son was initially evaluated by a developmental neurologist, he wasn't officially diagnosed until we could take him to the MIND Institute in California. |
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flowergal
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 58
Location: Peaceful Countryside, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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My son (7), got hallucinations a year ago when they were putting him on medicine for his TS. It was called Tenex, I believe....the kid literally freaked out. We watched a superhero cartoon and after that he really thought they were going to get him, he was freaking me out. The neuro said it was the med. So we stopped it and the hallucinations stopped, so it could be a medicine or combo of them with your son?
As far as the "killing myself" thing, my son does say things like that once in a while, but he will also say "I'm just gonna kill so and so." I ask him if he understands what that means and he does. But, he usually says it when he is upset or overly excited. So I think it is just a coping thing at this point. I would get with his psych on that. I have told my son's therapist, so she is keeping on eye on that too. Part of our history is my BIL(married to my sis), my kids favorite uncle committed suicide a week before Christmas last year. We told our kids he had an accident with the gun, but the kids have since figured out the truth, thanks to our family. Try explaining suicide to a 9 and 7 year old....they still do not understand it.
I agree with others on the board though, I would stay away from multiple meds if it all possible. My son takes clonidine for his TS at night, it keeps the big tics at bay for the most part. We hope it will work for a while. Hang in there, talk to the psych about it all.
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"When life brings you to your knees, you are in a good position to pray!" |
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ster
Phoenix
Joined: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 2398
Location: new england
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| my daughter's on Tenex & has had no problems.....Concerta, however, caused some major hallucinations! She was seeing animals that weren't even there. |
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Nikki03
Hummingbird
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Age: 26
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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annotated alice, I read a couple of articles online and also on another aspergers board about hallucinations happening in children with aspergers syndrome but who knows how true that really is.
2ukenkerl, Im pretty sure they are hallucinations, at first I just thought our house was haunted or something but then i began to think it was all in my sons mind. He was telling us about bugs crawling all over our floor/walls, snakes that lived in our fireplace but left out the window oneday, something kept touching his knee while he was watching tv and he would keep coming to me and telling me, freaking out about a big eye looking at him which was in reality the little light on the tv that shows that its plugged in, He would walk into a room and say he heard whispering and basically stuff like that and was talking alot about death and asking me over and over if i was going to die and live up with jesus soon? or about the big black hole in the ground (which no one else could see) in the school parking lot and was reeeally anxious and scared and got to a point where he wouldnt leave my side and followed me everywhere. He also was very upset one night because his toys were staring at him and he wouldnt go to bed till i threw one certain toy out which wouldnt stop 'looking at him'. I find this strange because when he was 2 yrs old (hes almost 5 now) he had the same thing happen with freaking out about his toys looking at him and it was kinda freaky! At the same time he was extremely sensitive to sounds more than usual like if a car drove past our house hed freak out 'what was that?" sort of thing. I didnt call his psych when all this happened because i didnt feel there was an immediate threat to his life (like him thinking he could fly or anything) and i just knew she was going to prescribe some other meds for him and i felt it had something to do with that one dose of risperdal i gave him 2 weeks prior to all of this. O sorry so to the point, i asked the psych later when it stopped and she said it sounds like hallucinations and i asked his nuero a week ago and he said it sounds like it too but they both agreed it wasnt from the risperdal/or seizure activity. All this was in january and since hasnt happened again.
Him getting upset about thorn thing i figured was because he likes to control EVERYTHING and has a set way to do things.
traveller, thankyou for telling me about yourself. Sometimes i feel he def. is on the spectrum and other times i feel he isnt and he is sooo inconsistent is part of the reason and hes gotten sooo much better within the past few months that im thinking even with therapy how could this be. Thats interesting about Irlenes syndrome, my son had something happen a year ago while I was driving in our truck where he suddenly started freaking out screaming, crying and covering his eyes saying the bad sun is chasing him and he wouldnt open his eyes except to look back once and freak out even more at the sun and he didnt stop till we took him indoors then when we left to go back to our truck he started freaking out again and kept his eyes shut the whole way home.I had his eyes checked afterwards and his vision was more than perfect. My husband was just dx'ed with bipolar 2 days ago to so this is interesting.
He is on the trileptal for seizures initially and a week ago we met with his neuro to discuss taking him off since he hasnt shown any type of seizure activity for awhile but he said he needs to be on them 2 yrs seizure free before weaning him off. Hel soon be hitting the one year mark and so far so good. I really would rather him not be on any medication but I have noticed when he misses a dose or 2 he acts very off and unmanagable but i still am going to see how he is off of them when the time comes. He was alot more emotional, tantrums, depressed even it was all so unreal and like nothing ive read about happening in children but I cannot put all his progress off towards his meds because like i said he started preschool and therapy all at the same time so? I agree about docs throwing medication at the child so they can get on quickly with the next patient and also some parents take the meds as a quick fix as well. Also the trileptal hes on is a mood stabilzer which is why his doc said has helped monitor his mood swings as well. I try to comfort him and tell him we love him but i feel so upset inside and like bawling my eyes out when he says horrible things i dont feel im very effective at all. Thankyou so mcuh!
Catspurr, he never to my knowlege had hallucinations like this before (besides the 'bad sun' incident and toys looking at him incident at age 2) The others may or may not have been hallucinations i dont really know. He is extemely sensitive so much that i worry it causes too much problems and self esteem issues already. I asked him if he knws what 'killing himself' means? He just ran away and hid under the table and said he dosnt know. I explained it to him and hes still saying it. Im not sure if he quite understands but i know he knows what killing means because he talks about dinosaurs killing thier prey or something dying in a way that he knows what it means and on tv has asked me if something was dead (which it was) so he knows. My son is def the kid that lashes out or doesnt seem to care if people are looking all he will do is scream for them to stop looking problem solved for him. I agree aboutthe drugs and risperdal is an antipsychotic so i do believe the hallucinations were related.
Kimj, my son was evaluated by the school and his expressive language was average (receptive was delayed) and he is very expressive in alot of things. Why im confused about him saying hes going to kill himself is because its not like hes moping around all day depressed, something distressing (to him) will happen and hel go in the whole im going to kill myself thing but I can pull him out of it lots of times and a couple minutes later he completely fine! There are some times where hes just crying and saying mean things hiting himself for awhile and thats when i get extremely worried! I also dont think he rages like bipolar children are supposed to (as ive read) so this is why im sooo confused about everything! What i read about aspergers he doesnt fit completely, what i read about bipolar he doesnt fit completely either but maybe im biased and am used to alot of red flags or other things. I would love to take my son to the MIND institute oneday, his developmental ped. dx'ed him with aspergers and when we brougth up about his depressive moods (at the time he was acting really depressive) the doctor asked us what are we doing to make him act like that? We were so upset! He was blaming us and told us kids dont get like that for nothing and they dont have bipolar like adults do. It made me feel really crappy because i obviously know hes not behaving like a normal 4 year old and i dont know why and it made me feel horrible he thought we were mistreating him somehow or something to make him feel this bad.
flowergal, i think its a combo of the meds too probably, im glad ur son is doing fine now that must have been very scary to go thru. My son also says 'im just going to kill so and so' usually our dog but he doesnt say it in a way i really fear for our dog (whos a good sized pit bull) I know for a fact when he says those threats hes doign it for attention because when i ignore him he says it again and gets mad if i dont listen. The threats to himself seem more distressed and real when he says them alot of the times. That is so sad, im so sorry for your loss. That must be hard and im sorry the kids had to find out about it too. I am looking for a good psych but we already have to travel hours away for the ones we see already, it seems they are all the same out there. Of course i also feel maybe i havnt given his psych a chance and i should just tell her i dont want meds prescribed for him but then what else is she good for? What other type of help is there for her to give him id probably be better off not even taking him to see it seems.
Ster, i will make a note of that and also the tenex mentioned previously sicne my husband is recently starting medication for his bipolar.
Thankyou everyone so much for responding! |
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KimJ
Legend in my own mind
Joined: Jun 11, 2006
Posts: 2538
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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The list of "hallucinations" sound like a potpourri of things. Most of them look like the products of extreme anxiety, to the point that you can actually experience those fears in a sensory way. I had that as a child. Some of the stuff (seeing bugs crawling and leaving) seem like bona fide hallucinations. But the mistaking stuff (the eye which was a light) seems like an extreme imagination mixed with anxiety and desperation for "things to make sense".
Heightened hearing is definitely an anxiety issue and/or just sensitive hearing-both very common in autism.
The rages seem more like autism meltdowns and emotional expression too.
I would really take that list to an autism expert.
In the mean time, what do you in response to his negative outbursts? What do you when he's calm? Do you go over rules and expectations like school lessons? At 5, we did and we applied strict reinforcers for good and bad behavior, including visual aides, simple instructions with consistency.
Lol, I never ask a doctor about mood or developmental problems. They are good for checking your stats, diagnosing diseases/infections and fixing broken body parts. The second they bring up parenting skills, I shut my ears. |
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andriarose
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Age: 23
Posts: 68
Location: Belfast, NI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Nikki03 wrote: | | He was telling us about bugs crawling all over our floor/walls, snakes that lived in our fireplace but left out the window one day, something kept touching his knee while he was watching tv and he would keep coming to me and telling me, freaking out about a big eye looking at him which was in reality the little light on the tv that shows that its plugged in, He would walk into a room and say he heard whispering and basically stuff like that and was talking alot about death and asking me over and over if i was going to die and live up with jesus soon? or about the big black hole in the ground (which no one else could see) in the school parking lot and was reeeally anxious and scared and got to a point where he wouldnt leave my side and followed me everywhere. He also was very upset one night because his toys were staring at him and he wouldnt go to bed till i threw one certain toy out which wouldnt stop 'looking at him'. |
Wow 
That sounds so much like me at that age, it's scary. I actually have an ASD assessment coming up next week, so I am as of yet undiagnosed. But when I was young, my parents and doctors told me I had an overactive imagination. I definitely do, and over the years I've found that any kind of caffeine consumption combines with that in such a was as to cause outright paranoia.
I used to see bugs, but it was always at night. I'd wake up, and my arm would be asleep and full of that tingly feeling which would cause me to imagine that I was covered in bugs. I didn't like any toy with a face, and if they had a face I would lock them in the closet before I fell asleep because I thought they might come alive. I also hear 'whispering' and music that isn't really there. I eventually figured out that I can trace all of it to tiny sounds in the room that no one else really minds - fans whirring, refrigerators running, radiators gurgling.
For me, those aren't hallucinations, they are a personification of the world around me. I've had hallucinations when very ill and on cold medicine (I was given something with codeine once, I screamed at the walls for hours). Hallucinations don't stop when you realize they aren't real. Imaginary things do. I don't imagine them on purpose, it just happens, but when I stop and rationalize for a few seconds they go away.
Here's an example:
The other day I walked into my kitchen, alone in the dark. I turned the light on and the first thing I saw were red drips of something on the white tile floor.
Thought 1: "Oh God, that's blood. I'm going to walk into my kitchen and find a body lying there. Will it be like the movies? Can I handle the sight of a dead body? Who is it? Is it one of my housemates? Someone else? Should I call an ambulance? What if they are already dead? Do I call a coroner? How do I find the phone number for a coroner?"
Thought 2: "Right. That's silly. What are the chances that there is someone dead in the kitchen? Ok, well, what else could that red stuff be? Ketchup? No, doesn't look like ketchup. Oh! I made strawberry pie earlier! Someone must have taken some and dripped it everywhere. Ohhhhhhh. Duh."
The thing is, I didn't develop the rational thinking until I was about 11. If that same situation happened when I was young, I'd have been screaming for my parents and claiming there was a dead body in the kitchen, when they probably wouldn't have even noticed the red drops on the floor in the first place. My brain is entirely logical, but only to me. I see red drops on the floor, they logically could be blood. Blood on the floor could logically be related to a body. A body in the kitchen could logically be my housemate who could need help. This happens so quickly that it's difficult to control. Once my parents got me to go through the steps in my logic that lead to the completely off-the-wall conclusion, things got a lot better.
I'm not saying this is definitely the case with your son, but you could attempt to find out what process he is going through to see the things that he does.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, I have serious problems with caffeine. More than one cup of coffee and I start thinking someone is following me down the street, or that there is a monster in my closet. Being aware of this, I simply avoid caffeine. I have a little brother who is the same way with aspartame. It seems like anything that our bodies treat as stimulants make our imaginations run free (like Sudafed! eek!).
I was also very very morbid as a child, and am to this day. I think it's the attraction of something that I can't fully understand. When I was really young, I constantly talked about the potential death of my parents and made my brothers cry. I loved any show involving murder investigations, serial killers, and even Unsolved Mysteries. It's a strange and unsettling obsession, but it's all about puzzles and the search for an ultimate answer. At the moment I am obsessed with interesting ways to die.
I never threatened to kill myself, though I remember thinking it. My little brother however threatened it constantly. I never fully figured it out, but could be a way to deal with emotions and frustrations that can't be understood. It's a logical way of preventing the people around you from being upset with you. They can't be upset if you aren't there to upset them.
I can't tell you that these things are what is happening with your child, but I felt like maybe my input could help. Hopefully it *is* just imagination and faulty logic. All I can say is, rather than letting his actions scare you, try to work out what he is thinking. That's a lot more difficult than it sounds, I know, but at the same time it really can't hurt to try. |
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